So, I think we can agree there should be an open way for people to collaborate on a guideline, then a smaller group of people to accept it as official?
2015-05-01 12145, 2015
Leftmost
Sounds good to me.
2015-05-01 12103, 2015
LordSputnik
So, "open collaboration" say to me that it should be wiki-based
2015-05-01 12116, 2015
Leftmost
Wikis are terrible for discussion.
2015-05-01 12140, 2015
Leo_Verto
hmm, community input but the final decision is made by "the commitee"?
2015-05-01 12150, 2015
LordSputnik
Yeah they are
2015-05-01 12155, 2015
LordSputnik
Leo_Verto: yup
2015-05-01 12106, 2015
LordSputnik
I think the main problem will be finding a commitee
2015-05-01 12138, 2015
LordSputnik
I have a feeling that was how the MB style stuff was meant to work initially, but the style "council" kept changing/becoming empty?
2015-05-01 12113, 2015
Leo_Verto
Looks like the problem is how to chose and control that council then
2015-05-01 12133, 2015
Leo_Verto
"control" as in prevent people from going crazy
2015-05-01 12116, 2015
Leo_Verto
One'd think ostracism might solve that
2015-05-01 12122, 2015
LordSputnik
Well, the commitee could be elected by the style group and only be around for a while before a new one gets elected?
2015-05-01 12154, 2015
Leo_Verto
But how is the "style group" defined?
2015-05-01 12122, 2015
Leo_Verto
User that have contributed to the style discussion in some documented way?
2015-05-01 12123, 2015
Leftmost
I think elections make a certain sense, but I also think that having no regularly-scheduled elections is a good idea. If someone on the committee chooses to leave or becomes inactive, then someone can be elected to replace them, but other than that I think it should remain fixed unless someone abuses their position.
2015-05-01 12143, 2015
Leo_Verto
Yeah, that was kinda my idea
2015-05-01 12132, 2015
Leo_Verto
the ability to unelect someone by vote of a majority of the style group can be added later
2015-05-01 12141, 2015
LordSputnik
OK
2015-05-01 12117, 2015
LordSputnik
So, reo said he didn't think a mailing list was particularly user friendly
2015-05-01 12129, 2015
LordSputnik
What could we use instead?
2015-05-01 12136, 2015
kuno
too much democracy, just ask who wants to do it and pick one.
2015-05-01 12149, 2015
Leo_Verto
In general I concur, but groups.io makes mailing lists works like a forum
2015-05-01 12103, 2015
kuno
(or there apparently)
2015-05-01 12107, 2015
kuno
s/there/three/
2015-05-01 12113, 2015
LordSputnik
Well yeah, but people have to sign up to groups.io then
2015-05-01 12121, 2015
Leo_Verto
yeah, we still need protection against malevolent or uncooperative council members
2015-05-01 12128, 2015
LordSputnik
We could use JIRA comments and keep it in the same place as the style ticket
2015-05-01 12102, 2015
Leo_Verto
but how user-friendly are those?
2015-05-01 12104, 2015
Leftmost
LordSputnik, I think that places even more of a burden on casual users.
2015-05-01 12109, 2015
Leo_Verto
Is there a way to search JIRA comments?
2015-05-01 12122, 2015
LordSputnik
Err, not sure
2015-05-01 12141, 2015
LordSputnik
Either way, I can't see casual users taking part whether it's groups.io or JIRA based
2015-05-01 12124, 2015
LordSputnik
the only way that would happen would be with a built in feature, or a more open communications platform (eg. blog comments/twitter/facebook/irc)
2015-05-01 12125, 2015
Leftmost
Is there a way we can get something forum-like backed by a mailing list so that people can use either and so that the latter doesn't require joining any sites?
2015-05-01 12148, 2015
LordSputnik
Well, we can probably set groups.io to allow anonymous users to post
2015-05-01 12154, 2015
LordSputnik
That sounds like a bad idea though :P
2015-05-01 12156, 2015
Leo_Verto
Ugh
2015-05-01 12157, 2015
Leo_Verto
Yeah
2015-05-01 12126, 2015
Leo_Verto
I'd say we'd need a way to track who's engaged in style discussions, especially if we want to add any kinds of votes
2015-05-01 12139, 2015
LordSputnik
Well, actually, groups.io has login through Google and Facebook anyway...
2015-05-01 12156, 2015
Leftmost
...which not everyone wants to use.
2015-05-01 12131, 2015
LordSputnik
But between groups.io registration, Google or Facebook, it's a fairly good choice of registration options
2015-05-01 12157, 2015
LordSputnik
You've got to have registration to stop spam, and that seems like the least obstructive way of registering people
2015-05-01 12102, 2015
Leo_Verto
People would have to register for a forum or mailing list anyways
2015-05-01 12122, 2015
Leftmost
Not for a mailing list. Subscribing to a list is not the same as registration.
2015-05-01 12122, 2015
Leo_Verto
And we can enable anonymous subscriptions
2015-05-01 12140, 2015
Leo_Verto
I suppose it heavily depends on the list
2015-05-01 12105, 2015
LordSputnik
So I'd vote for groups.io for discussion, a collaborative wiki for revisions of documents, and a style comittee to decide when a wiki page is ready to be made official
2015-05-01 12132, 2015
Leo_Verto
Didn't we decide a wiki would be a bad idea?
2015-05-01 12138, 2015
Leftmost
It comes down to this for me: we want a way that people can contribute without having to create accounts. It makes sense to me to create an alternate interface for people who don't like/aren't used to mailing lists, but making people create an account _anywhere_ outside BB is an obstacle to participation.
2015-05-01 12104, 2015
Leo_Verto
I'd prefer to use Github for style management, not sure how user friendly it'd be though
2015-05-01 12159, 2015
Leo_Verto
But branches and PR could potentially be really useful
2015-05-01 12106, 2015
Leo_Verto
Not to forget the built-in diff tool
2015-05-01 12126, 2015
LordSputnik
Leo_Verto: I like the idea of GitHub, but I don't know whether that's as easy to use as a wiki for style contributors. I had in mind that the style comittee would take an "official" version of a wiki page and add it to some docs on GitHub, but we could alternatively have it all on GitHub
2015-05-01 12113, 2015
Leftmost
git is pretty user-unfriendly as well. I suppose not everyone needs to be making changes to the docs themselves, though.
2015-05-01 12118, 2015
Leo_Verto
Hmm, all on Github formatted with Markdown, easy to render, could potentially even be displayed elsewhere
2015-05-01 12122, 2015
LordSputnik
Leftmost: I'm just looking to see if we can have groups.io allowing subscription without registration
2015-05-01 12135, 2015
Leo_Verto
Well, I think user wouldn't even have to use local clones
2015-05-01 12147, 2015
Leo_Verto
The GH webinterface does pretty much suffice for working on text documents
2015-05-01 12101, 2015
LordSputnik
Leo_Verto: But then they have to be registered on GitHub :P
2015-05-01 12117, 2015
Leo_Verto
Well, they'd have to register for a wiki otherwise :P
2015-05-01 12130, 2015
Leo_Verto
Unless we hacked together OAuth for Mediawiki
2015-05-01 12157, 2015
Leo_Verto
Um
2015-05-01 12106, 2015
Leo_Verto
We could even keep the discussion on Github
2015-05-01 12115, 2015
Leo_Verto
It does sort of work as a mailing list
2015-05-01 12135, 2015
Leo_Verto
But it'd probably require registration in any case
2015-05-01 12143, 2015
LordSputnik
Leftmost: it looks like groups.io may support subscription instead of registration
2015-05-01 12102, 2015
LordSputnik
There's a subscription email address visible when you're logged out
2015-05-01 12144, 2015
Leftmost
We should confirm that, then, and possibly go with that for now.
2015-05-01 12150, 2015
LordSputnik
I'm just trying it out
2015-05-01 12113, 2015
Leo_Verto
This seems like a good use for Captain Github Integration :D
2015-05-01 12152, 2015
LordSputnik
Perhaps, although I don't want it getting spammy like bb-devel did :P
2015-05-01 12101, 2015
LordSputnik
So, the style committee
2015-05-01 12106, 2015
LordSputnik
One of us should probably be on it
2015-05-01 12122, 2015
LordSputnik
If we're going with 3 people, we need another two volunteers from here :)
2015-05-01 12146, 2015
Leo_Verto
I think chrysn_ expressed interest in style a while ago
2015-05-01 12153, 2015
Leftmost
I don't think it's necessary that one of us be on it, but if you want to be on it, I've got no problem with that. :)
Ok, so, I'll set up a bookbrainz-style mailing list, we can announce the link here too.
2015-05-01 12120, 2015
LordSputnik
Now... the style process
2015-05-01 12107, 2015
LordSputnik
Do we require a JIRA ticket as well as a mailing list post? I guess discussion should just be open until the guideline is considered complete by the committee?
2015-05-01 12125, 2015
Leo_Verto
This is where Github might be useful
2015-05-01 12139, 2015
Leo_Verto
We could get rid of the JIRA ticket and work with PRs
2015-05-01 12148, 2015
LordSputnik
Oh yeah, and "where should the docs be stored" is another key question
2015-05-01 12124, 2015
LordSputnik
Leo_Verto: we could, and keep JIRA for code tickets only, since -style can in most cases safely be considered a separate thing
2015-05-01 12147, 2015
LordSputnik
(apart from where it requires adding something in the UI or some schema change, but those would be exceptional cases)
2015-05-01 12129, 2015
Leftmost
LordSputnik, we could just use a git submodule if the docs are stored in git. :-P
2015-05-01 12140, 2015
Leo_Verto
Extending my idea of unified style-on-github, we could potentially use github pages to serve as the official style doc
reosarevok: hey, thanks for being here :) we're just deciding where to keep the docs - we've decided on a groups.io mailing list for discussion and a three person style committee to approve docs so far
2015-05-01 12106, 2015
reosarevok
Heh
2015-05-01 12110, 2015
LordSputnik
Leo_Verto: I'm not sure it needs to be on bb.org - we already have some docs on readthedocs.org, and that also supports markdown
2015-05-01 12119, 2015
LordSputnik
So we could host style there too
2015-05-01 12131, 2015
Leo_Verto
And it's super easy to update the docs with git :D
As I mentioned to leftmost (I think?) mailing lists are a bit tricky because a lot of people don't like them that might otherwise participate
2015-05-01 12106, 2015
reosarevok
But dunno. Might not be an issue at first :)
2015-05-01 12111, 2015
Leftmost
reosarevok, groups.io has a forum-like interface as well.
2015-05-01 12116, 2015
reosarevok
Oh, I see
2015-05-01 12122, 2015
reosarevok
(haven't touched it yet)
2015-05-01 12124, 2015
Leo_Verto
With Hashtags :D
2015-05-01 12131, 2015
reosarevok
Sounds okyish then? :)
2015-05-01 12140, 2015
LordSputnik
reosarevok: I'm hoping not - and with groups.io, there's also a forum-like interface if people prefer that, and probably RSS feeds and all that jazz too
2015-05-01 12150, 2015
Leo_Verto
As someone who doesn't like mailing lists either, it seems pretty user-friendly
2015-05-01 12158, 2015
reosarevok
I'd say keep the docs in the same place you keep other documentation
2015-05-01 12110, 2015
reosarevok
Whether that's the site or somewhere else
2015-05-01 12151, 2015
LordSputnik
My idea for user documentation was to have a "User Guide" which contained general info/tutorial/style guidelines - that would be separate to the developer documentation, and probably live at bbdocs.readthedocs.org
2015-05-01 12155, 2015
Leo_Verto
We've been dicussing the possibility of managing our style on Github
2015-05-01 12136, 2015
Leo_Verto
Advantages of this are: Issues, Pull Requests, multiple branches for final and release as well as the built-in diff tool
2015-05-01 12158, 2015
LordSputnik
Leo_Verto: my only problem with Github is that only registered GitHub users can interact with it
2015-05-01 12100, 2015
Leo_Verto
Essentially combining JIRA and the Wiki
2015-05-01 12119, 2015
LordSputnik
Leftmost: what are you thinking? :)
2015-05-01 12120, 2015
reosarevok
FWIW, one of my goals with style is to eventually condense it into a more book-ish thing
2015-05-01 12125, 2015
reosarevok
(in MB)
2015-05-01 12130, 2015
LordSputnik
reosarevok: that's how I feel too!
2015-05-01 12138, 2015
reosarevok
So, a bit more of a guide and a bit less of a collection of random pages
