#metabrainz

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      • BrainzGit
        [musicbrainz-server] reosarevok opened pull request #1912 (master…MBS-11390): MBS-11390: Sum, don't overwrite, added entity counts https://github.com/metabrainz/musicbrainz-serve...
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      • yvanzo
        mo’’in’
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      • Mr_Monkey
        Moin!
      • outsidecontext
        would it be acceptable to vote against https://musicbrainz.org/edit/77335285 ? I think I have a high tolerance for extremes of all kinds if they are artistical, but seeing a NS swastika on MB front page is too much for me really
      • _lucifer
        alastairp: for the release tracking in sentry, i was wondering if we could enable the github integration https://docs.sentry.io/product/releases/setup/r...
      • sentry_sdk has additional RedisIntegration and SqlAlchemyIntegration available as well. Should we add those also?
      • ruaok
        outsidecontext: it is up to you. I fully agree with you, not something I want to see either. but it is a slippery slope.
      • also moin!
      • zas
        moiiin
      • yvanzo
        I’m not a fan either but voting against cover art edits won’t prevent these images to be displayed on MB front page. Fortunately, it’s always for a short time: This image has been replaced with more recent additions already.
      • outsidecontext
        Moin!
      • alastairp
        _lucifer: sure, lets try all of the integrations, and see what they give us
      • _lucifer
        👍
      • yvanzo
        However, we could be more selective about cover art being displayed on the front page: only added with upvotes for example.
      • outsidecontext
        yes. it's also a thing were to draw the line. I also argued in favour of having such releases on MB even if we don't like it. but there is a qualitative difference between just having metadata or actual content (which would be images and lyrics to me)
      • yvanzo: I like this suggestion, even if it means less changes there. but at least someone had a look at it before.
      • ruaok
        yvanzo: I like that idea.
      • reosarevok
        That's not a bad idea but I'm not sure it would help with this
      • If that's the right cover, it *should* be upvoted
      • It should help in a case where someone tried to add spam to flood the front page tho
      • yvanzo
        There is no group of NS editors that vote on edits for now at least :)
      • reosarevok: Good point, maybe we could not display more than one cover art entered by the same editor too.
      • iliekcomputers
        good morning!
      • zas
        imho we shouldn't censor cover art, but we are still tied by laws. In France, displaying svastiskas isn't illegal, but if it is used for nazi propaganda. So, that's definitvely a slippery slope.... we already have bands tagged as nazi/RAC/white supremacists in the db, and that's definitively and unfortunately a part of the music world.
      • so as a music database, I don't think we should filter them out, else we start to select what can be in or not, and it is a never ending story... some people are uncomfortable with svastikas, some others with nudity, ... music is reflecting humanity... and sometimes humanity just sucks
      • reosarevok
        Yeah, it's a complicated one. We 100% shouldn't remove these things. I personally also dislike the idea of having an NSFW / whatever filter
      • But if people wanted it enough I'd be ok with that
      • (where if an image has more "hide" than "show" votes, it will be hidden until you click)
      • That said, I wouldn't be surprised if that was used as some stupid way to troll
      • zas
        yes, also we could have same issue with nudity, porn or violent images, so a system to "hide" by default based on votes could be actually useful
      • reosarevok
        I mean, we have those already, we just don't censor them either rn
      • zas
        does this mean we need a way to "vote to hide"? It could help in such situation. When flag is set, image isn't displayed anywhere by default, still it is listed and can be downloaded, but it needs extra step.
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        hide from the front page sure. not hide on album pages
      • a "hid" image could perhance not be selected for RG image (provided it already had several non-hid ones)
      • and thne peopel can opt in to "always hide" "hidden" images
      • reosarevok
        Issue is that it wouldn't help for the front page unless the original uploader sets it, probably
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        I don't want to always click "show" on cover art or whatever just because a bunch of americnas decided that some picture with boobs on the cover was "offensive"
      • reosarevok
        Because by the time someone else does, chances are it's almost out of the front page already
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        exactly
      • on the other hand: what are the chances that images show on the front page? all the times I've uploaded iamges recently it wa "cant show he front image" and it didn't actulaly show
      • and it's not like the iamge wont be pushed of the front page quickly anyway
      • reosarevok
        They show 10 minutes after upload, so not immediately
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      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        imho, the more attention we give these sort of images the better it is (for them)
      • ignore it to silence i say
      • zas
        imho cover art on front page is another issue: I would prefer we select something else than "recently added", because to me it doesn't make much sense anyway, and leads to such problems. We could display releases based on other criterias.
      • yvanzo
        ZaphodBeeblebrox: Like reosarevok wrote: any editor can flood MB with topic-oriented releases; these will have a prominent place in MB front page.
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        has that actually ever hppened?
      • the only one I can remember was when kepstin uploaded a bunch of anime single ones and they formed a continious image sort of
      • yvanzo
        Yes, it already happened, even it was probably not to voluntarily get on the front page: just someone doing batch edits.
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        but in case it does. i figure having an admin role user option that could effectivly "axe" the showing of cover art for a set time woudl be fine
      • what i'm trying ot get at is : how big a deal is this? how many peopel actually visit the front page?
      • yvanzo
        I guess it is one of the most visited page.
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        what are we worrying about: is it that mb will be put in a bad light if trollers go and upload every swastika image at once?
      • is it that we don't want ot be seen to be (inexplisitly) pro these ideas?
      • is it that we don't want to offend people
      • is it we don't want to traumatise people (which is the ony one i'd care about)
      • well i'd be pretty traumatised by a cover art of someone puking :(
      • yet i won't ban this
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      • yvanzo
        Newcomers will see it, indexing bots will see it.
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        I have 0 issue with an official " we don't support these ideals, but we won't ban images/releases of these topics"
      • written somewhere in the coc
      • yvanzo
        really, I cannot read as fast as you write :)
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        and of course if someone starts behaving malicious to banz0r them
      • sorry
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      • ruaok
        "MetaBrainz projects are interested in all types of data/metadata: Published/unpublished, popular/fringe, western/non-western and human/non-human music should all be captured by our projects. MetaBrainz does not discriminate on sex, religion, race or controversial viewpoints. MetaBrainz does not prefer one type of metadata over another, which also means that MetaBrainz does not condemn or condone any of the content catalogued in the
      • database. Editors and voters are expected to tolerate viewpoints that may differ from their own. " point 5 of https://metabrainz.org/social-contract
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        so I'm not sure, is this editor adding this coverart because they're an ass? (possibly if they listen to this kind of music) but unless doing it maliciously (ie lots at once to spam and make it thing) then it's fine
      • Mr_Monkey
        > imho cover art on front page is another issue: I would prefer we select something else than "recently added"
      • I second that !
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        hmm
      • ruaok: exactly
      • reosarevok
        Mr_Monkey, zas: what would you suggest display?
      • IIRC the whole idea was "see, people add stuff all the time"
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        yea
      • imho we could display $number of recent releases and upon refresh another number
      • my point though : https://beta.musicbrainz.org/ it's not there anymore
      • having a quick-enough go-through of say. "todays uploads" will fix this problem, inho
      • imho*
      • Mr_Monkey
        I'm not exactly sure what data we have access to, but we could surface either 1. manually curated items (say from last day/week) but that's extra work 2. most popular (by page visits) releases added today/yesterday 3. entities with the most "activity" (would that be views, comments, edits, …? not sure)
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        hmmmm
      • i like "today/this week" and on quick rotation. so basiclaly any image woudl be shown maybe once if at all
      • who's going to bother about curation? i mena we might get chaban to do it, they seem extremely active in looking at edits. but it's kidna mean to make this one guy's job :P
      • zas
        yes, in fact the "recently added" criteria is just among zillions, I'd select releases with the best metadata (or edit activity) rather than a release just added having almost no metadata, and perhaps even incorrect metadata
      • Mr_Monkey
        I guess "vote to put this on the front page" sort of functionality? But it would always be easier to use statistics rather than curating.
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        the problem with that is that then we'd get, white, western angoamericna releases only
      • zas
        but if we enforce no more than one release by country/region
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        and then the releases that *really* needs a pare of eyes (badly added) lose yet one eye
      • oh but I like this: one releaase per country/region. and we can say "today in the wrodl" and have them shown, actually ool idea
      • !
      • today in the world"
      • zas
        the recently added selection is also bias to white/western angloamerican music btw
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        true that
      • i'm jsut sceptic to a "curated" or "votable" list. who's going ot vote, who is going ot curate? this is gonig ot be annoying work that wil eventually lead to nothing
      • ruaok
        agreed. people will forget and nothing, or stale content, will be shown.
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        if everyone can vote: then why won't rac trolls jsut band together and vote trugh qustionable iamges
      • if only say, eutomods, thne it's gonig ot lead to elitism
      • Mr_Monkey
        Fair enough, there's lots of arguments generally against using curation or voting.
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        and people will forget and exatly that
      • zas
        we could do something automatic: select N countries among all countries, then N artists in each country, then N releases with significant metadata, etc... we could also select a set of genres
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        still feel that they need ot be "recent"
      • in order to make senseon the front page . aka what reo pointed out
      • zas
        it could, but I would take recently modified rather than recently added
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        I like the idea of having "recent afric and, recent australian recent european, or recent in rap recent in j-pop recent in afuxe etc
      • zas
        or recently added but with significant amount of metadata
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        hmmmmm
      • how wil lthat exactly prevent swastik thoguh? if anything it'll lad trolls to want to improve those releae often or much
      • rather thna the current state of "they are mostly ignored/forgotten"
      • zas
        well, imho "shocking images" issue is another problem, I still think we need a way to hide them if enough people consider they should
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        as long as it's opt-in i don't mind :)
      • I just don't want to be accused of being "pedo" because i uploaded scorpions "virgin killer" original image :D
      • zas
        ahah :)
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        :D
      • outsidecontext
        +1 to zas comment above. also to ZaphodBeeblebrox to not give that too much attention
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        yea I mean.. it's attention they *want*
      • outsidecontext
        I think that's my main point, the front page is giving much attention to this. It could even be understood as "promoting" it and reflect badly on MB. if we find a way to make it less likely something like this comes up on the front page that would be great
      • I even think a way to flag content (community votes) would be ok. Certain uses could be limited by this (front page definitely, release group main image maybe, could be a user option to hide such content by default), without removing the content completely.
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        I see where you're getting at. imho just having a more excanged (ie each refresh brings a second set of images) would go a long way to do that..
      • i fea it will lead a bit to Streisand effect" if peopel have to vote/curate things
      • fear*
      • outsidecontext
        true also
      • atj
        Not sure how that would happen if you're voting to hide an image
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        for consensus we'd have to have severla people voting, thus we have to find some way of showing images to be voted, thereby showcasing potentiall problematic iamges
      • "vote on these images we think might be problematic"
      • etc
      • atj
        Well I'd assume that people who are specifically looking to vote on images wouldn't be the ones who you want to protect from offensive images?
      • You're effectively asking people to moderate the images, so they can't really expect to only see non-objectionable content?
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        that's not what i'm saying. I'm say ing "Streisand Effect" ie. we want these images to have as little "air-time" as possible, and by having people ote on them (which is itself an issue see ruaoks point above) we are putting light on images that we'd ideally want ignored as much as possible
      • atj
        Otherwise, how does it even work?
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox
        my point is exctly that it wont work to moderate these ;)
      • by having peopel vote on them.
      • BrainzGit
        [metabrainz.org] mayhem merged pull request #351 (master…bu-upgrade): Upgrade pip, brainzutils and pin package versions https://github.com/metabrainz/metabrainz.org/pu...
      • ruaok
        _lucifer: should I deploy this or does it need to wait on anything?
      • ZaphodBeeblebrox of to the library