we just need 3 fields: ARTIST (including all different names) + ARTIST_ID for searching, and storing ARTIST_CREDIT for output
2010-12-01 33501, 2010
ijabz
If you don't have a separate field for individual artists, and the complete artist credit for the album you cannot do exact matches properly because you dont know what the artist is for the album
2010-12-01 33548, 2010
ijabz
They are necessary thats why we put them in, and I don't see any advantage in removing size, (index creation time and index time will be affect will be neglible)
and "artist", "artistname" and "creditname" are not really clear
2010-12-01 33552, 2010
murdos_
there's a point where, if you want exact matches properly, you'd better use a database
2010-12-01 33554, 2010
ijabz
artist credits ARE confusing :)
2010-12-01 33536, 2010
ijabz
but the thoase releases a re credited to renaud not renaud3 so why should renaud3 return matches for the default artist field
2010-12-01 33509, 2010
murdos_
but we can perfectly hide this complexity in the search server
2010-12-01 33519, 2010
murdos_
ijabz: renaud == renaud3
2010-12-01 33527, 2010
ijabz
Yes but one is an alias or somthing
2010-12-01 33504, 2010
murdos_
no, "renaud3" is the actual artist name, "renaud" is the specific credit name used for recordings
2010-12-01 33558, 2010
ijabz
You can hide the complexity in the user interface, if you want to search both you just search both fields, once you merge into one field youve lost that information
sorry, I've to go, but I hope we can clear this issue later
2010-12-01 33504, 2010
ijabz
phew, I also need to get on with someting else
2010-12-01 33518, 2010
dinog joined the channel
2010-12-01 33552, 2010
kurtjx joined the channel
2010-12-01 33501, 2010
ocharles
warp: I might have to lump a bit of JavaScript work on you
2010-12-01 33518, 2010
ocharles
I've done the work to create new artists and labels, and for the most part it works - but the display is kinda messed up :)
2010-12-01 33513, 2010
ocharles
At the moment it creates artists if you leave the artist field blank and add a artist credit name. we should probably have an option in the drop down called "add new artist" which fills in the artist credit name and does something special to the artist selection box (maybe italic text saying create new artist or something)
2010-12-01 33551, 2010
kurtjx joined the channel
2010-12-01 33557, 2010
murdos_ joined the channel
2010-12-01 33545, 2010
ijabz
murdos_I thought about your example some more, it is very contrived, I think in reality if you were to change the artist name you might expect the credit names to also change and that is the problem.
2010-12-01 33507, 2010
ijabz
Where the artist name and credit name differ it will be important in some cirumstances to search for these individually
2010-12-01 33518, 2010
ijabz
and putting both into artist will screw up the scoring applied because recording that contain both variations will score better than one that just matches one of the terms
2010-12-01 33519, 2010
ijabz
Typically when searching for a recoriding/release you only take the first page of results, so if a good result doesnt get on that first page because of this you'll miss it
2010-12-01 33555, 2010
ijabz
I really see no advantage in removing it
2010-12-01 33559, 2010
murdos_
how could a "recording [could] contain both variations"?
2010-12-01 33537, 2010
murdos_
err... ignore "[could]"
2010-12-01 33535, 2010
ijabz
If the recording has been credited to the artists real name and performance name
2010-12-01 33513, 2010
ijabz
or another scnerio if you were to search for songs by an artist, songs that have a artist credit that differs from the artist will score lower because more terms in that reording then another
2010-12-01 33553, 2010
ijabz
Similar to the problem we used to have searching for artists that the score returned for an artist was effected by how many aliases they had
2010-12-01 33505, 2010
murdos_
hmm... maybe
2010-12-01 33556, 2010
hawke_ joined the channel
2010-12-01 33546, 2010
murdos_
I'm still wondering about adding a new field for the full artist credit (and put what is currently in artist), and make "artist" a catch all with all different artist names
2010-12-01 33525, 2010
murdos_
so you can do simple search, and "expert" search
2010-12-01 33519, 2010
ijabz
Dont follow, the artist field already contains the full artist credit (this is the simple search searching for what is on the CD)
2010-12-01 33538, 2010
ijabz
and artistname and creditname are the expert searches
2010-12-01 33539, 2010
ijabz
i.e the artist field contaisn what is credited on the cd as it is written with the joining phrases which is normally what you want,
2010-12-01 33505, 2010
nikki
not exactly related to this conversation, but I want to enter a ticket about not redirecting to the artist on partial matches at some point, is that a search server or mb_server thing?
2010-12-01 33515, 2010
ijabz
and it will score so that if youe neter the exacting matching artist credit such as "Johnny Cash & June Carter" that will give the bet score
2010-12-01 33529, 2010
ijabz
s/bet/best
2010-12-01 33533, 2010
murdos_
not really. I know artist "Renaud3", and i want to find its recording
II havent done anymore on it, but I would think if the artist is non latin add it to artist_name, if a name credit is non latin add it to name_credit, and leave artist field alone
2010-12-01 33505, 2010
murdos_
ijabz: sure, but how many times are you going to explain to external developers that they got wrong results because they're not using these 3 OR clauses?
2010-12-01 33532, 2010
murdos_
by wrong results, I mean no results
2010-12-01 33542, 2010
ijabz
But yes this add complexity backups my argument that we need trhese seperate fields
2010-12-01 33506, 2010
ijabz
I dont think its Rocket Science, these are webservice devlopers not webiste users
2010-12-01 33540, 2010
ijabz
But I dont mind too much if you want to another field containing everything as long as you dont remove the other fields
If use select the advanced query syntax (whihc most users dont) you need to understand what you are doing
2010-12-01 33553, 2010
warp
ocharles: i'm on a cellphone, not home right now.
2010-12-01 33549, 2010
ijabz
I use the webservice more than just about anyone and I need these three fields, and I think when other starts using this they will find they need these fields as well so it really isnt on to start removing these...
2010-12-01 33533, 2010
ijabz
but if you want to add another field, call this artist and rename artist to artistcredit i dont mind that
so its more of a ui thing then really, by that I mean you can already do this by sending three queryies
2010-12-01 33536, 2010
murdos_
but the purpose would be to send only one query
2010-12-01 33507, 2010
murdos_
since it's more efficient
2010-12-01 33515, 2010
ijabz
Yes I understand, but of course behind the scenes the seach server would be doing three queries in parallel
2010-12-01 33553, 2010
murdos_
sure, but it's low level and handled directly by lucene
2010-12-01 33557, 2010
ijabz
so its quicker from a users pov, but its not anymore efficient from the searchservers pov
2010-12-01 33546, 2010
ijabz
Would that require some extra work on mb_serrver
2010-12-01 33552, 2010
murdos_
probably
2010-12-01 33519, 2010
murdos_
could you mix different types in one MMD response?
2010-12-01 33536, 2010
ijabz
So its not going to happen for NGS , unlkess you do it
2010-12-01 33546, 2010
ijabz
Yes, i dont see why not
2010-12-01 33503, 2010
murdos_
that's not the point, I'm not a paid dev, and I'm not really relying on other people work
2010-12-01 33505, 2010
ijabz
Also I don't know if there would be an issue from Robs POV allowing you to do that sort of query, because you are kind of getting extra queries per second
2010-12-01 33513, 2010
murdos_
so either I deliver, or I don't
2010-12-01 33502, 2010
ijabz
You mean you run search_server standalone, so dont need mb_server
