#musicbrainz-devel

/

      • automator joined the channel
      • automator
        luks: I created a JIRA about retrieving pre-NGS collaboration artists @ jira.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-1123
      • dinog1 joined the channel
      • ijabz_ joined the channel
      • djce joined the channel
      • ijabz joined the channel
      • nikki
        luks: ping
      • ijabz
        murdos: ( a rather delayed) pong
      • murdos_ joined the channel
      • murdos_
        ijabz: could you remind me why we have some much artist field for release/recording/release-group/work?
      • ARTIST_NAME, ARTIST, ARTIST_NAMECREDIT
      • it's really confusing and not really needed IMO
      • ijabz
        Iit was added as a response to a gripe you had on this page http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/?title=User:Murdos/..., (that youve now deleted) to do with artist credits
      • Some fields are required for searching, and some for returning the data
      • this page explains the search fields http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Next_Generation_Sch...
      • murdos_
        we just need 3 fields: ARTIST (including all different names) + ARTIST_ID for searching, and storing ARTIST_CREDIT for output
      • ijabz
        If you don't have a separate field for individual artists, and the complete artist credit for the album you cannot do exact matches properly because you dont know what the artist is for the album
      • They are necessary thats why we put them in, and I don't see any advantage in removing size, (index creation time and index time will be affect will be neglible)
      • murdos_
        I just extremely confusing... Although I'm one of the dev on the search server, I just says WTF when I got not results from http://test.musicbrainz.org/search?query=artist...
      • and "artist", "artistname" and "creditname" are not really clear
      • there's a point where, if you want exact matches properly, you'd better use a database
      • ijabz
        artist credits ARE confusing :)
      • but the thoase releases a re credited to renaud not renaud3 so why should renaud3 return matches for the default artist field
      • murdos_
        but we can perfectly hide this complexity in the search server
      • ijabz: renaud == renaud3
      • ijabz
        Yes but one is an alias or somthing
      • murdos_
        no, "renaud3" is the actual artist name, "renaud" is the specific credit name used for recordings
      • ijabz
        You can hide the complexity in the user interface, if you want to search both you just search both fields, once you merge into one field youve lost that information
      • murdos_
        (because I renamed the artist "Renaud" to "Renaud3": http://test.musicbrainz.org/edit/13577883)
      • sorry, I've to go, but I hope we can clear this issue later
      • ijabz
        phew, I also need to get on with someting else
      • dinog joined the channel
      • kurtjx joined the channel
      • ocharles
        warp: I might have to lump a bit of JavaScript work on you
      • I've done the work to create new artists and labels, and for the most part it works - but the display is kinda messed up :)
      • At the moment it creates artists if you leave the artist field blank and add a artist credit name. we should probably have an option in the drop down called "add new artist" which fills in the artist credit name and does something special to the artist selection box (maybe italic text saying create new artist or something)
      • kurtjx joined the channel
      • murdos_ joined the channel
      • ijabz
        murdos_I thought about your example some more, it is very contrived, I think in reality if you were to change the artist name you might expect the credit names to also change and that is the problem.
      • Where the artist name and credit name differ it will be important in some cirumstances to search for these individually
      • and putting both into artist will screw up the scoring applied because recording that contain both variations will score better than one that just matches one of the terms
      • Typically when searching for a recoriding/release you only take the first page of results, so if a good result doesnt get on that first page because of this you'll miss it
      • I really see no advantage in removing it
      • murdos_
        how could a "recording [could] contain both variations"?
      • err... ignore "[could]"
      • ijabz
        If the recording has been credited to the artists real name and performance name
      • or another scnerio if you were to search for songs by an artist, songs that have a artist credit that differs from the artist will score lower because more terms in that reording then another
      • Similar to the problem we used to have searching for artists that the score returned for an artist was effected by how many aliases they had
      • murdos_
        hmm... maybe
      • hawke_ joined the channel
      • I'm still wondering about adding a new field for the full artist credit (and put what is currently in artist), and make "artist" a catch all with all different artist names
      • so you can do simple search, and "expert" search
      • ijabz
        Dont follow, the artist field already contains the full artist credit (this is the simple search searching for what is on the CD)
      • and artistname and creditname are the expert searches
      • i.e the artist field contaisn what is credited on the cd as it is written with the joining phrases which is normally what you want,
      • nikki
        not exactly related to this conversation, but I want to enter a ticket about not redirecting to the artist on partial matches at some point, is that a search server or mb_server thing?
      • ijabz
        and it will score so that if youe neter the exacting matching artist credit such as "Johnny Cash & June Carter" that will give the bet score
      • s/bet/best
      • murdos_
        not really. I know artist "Renaud3", and i want to find its recording
      • and I don't want to make complex query like that one: http://test.musicbrainz.org/search?query=artist...
      • ijabz
        Thats an expert search because the songs arent credited to Renaud3 they are credited to Renaud
      • nikki:not sure, I guess its mb_server but you can allocate to search_server first and I'll move it if wrong
      • murdos_
        ijabz: in which field(s) are you going to add aliases re http://jira.musicbrainz.org/browse/SEARCH-46 ?
      • ijabz
        Its just three OR clauses
      • II havent done anymore on it, but I would think if the artist is non latin add it to artist_name, if a name credit is non latin add it to name_credit, and leave artist field alone
      • murdos_
        ijabz: sure, but how many times are you going to explain to external developers that they got wrong results because they're not using these 3 OR clauses?
      • by wrong results, I mean no results
      • ijabz
        But yes this add complexity backups my argument that we need trhese seperate fields
      • I dont think its Rocket Science, these are webservice devlopers not webiste users
      • But I dont mind too much if you want to another field containing everything as long as you dont remove the other fields
      • murdos_
        these are website users too: http://test.musicbrainz.org/search?query=&t... has a "Use advanced query syntax" option
      • warp
        eep
      • ijabz
        If use select the advanced query syntax (whihc most users dont) you need to understand what you are doing
      • warp
        ocharles: i'm on a cellphone, not home right now.
      • ijabz
        I use the webservice more than just about anyone and I need these three fields, and I think when other starts using this they will find they need these fields as well so it really isnt on to start removing these...
      • but if you want to add another field, call this artist and rename artist to artistcredit i dont mind that
      • murdos_
        ok, I might do that
      • ijabz: re http://jira.musicbrainz.org/browse/SEARCH-15 there's a problem with release and recording reindexing
      • they're really too slow to index
      • ijabz
        Yeah, well I started looking at that and rest assurd they will be alot quicker once I rsolved it
      • murdos_
        good news
      • does your solution might work even if I reindex only a few elements?
      • ijabz
        But I have already put forwad two easy solutions that improve release for me but they were both poo,pooed which is a bit fustraing
      • murdos_
        that is if there's a long initialization step, it won't work for frequent reindexing
      • out of curiosity, what are these 2 solutions?
      • ijabz
        Thats the difficult part the harder soln is the temp table one that wont work well if justbupdating the index, have to do code paths I guess
      • Create a Release Puid table that is populated by triggers, and the additional index I wanted to add on the track table
      • murdos_
        not exactly related, I'm considering adding support for searching in multiple indexes, using MultiReader
      • ijabz
        care to give an example ?
      • murdos_
        http://www.discogs.com/search?q=renaud&btn=... <= you get both artist, release and label in search results
      • ijabz
        so its more of a ui thing then really, by that I mean you can already do this by sending three queryies
      • murdos_
        but the purpose would be to send only one query
      • since it's more efficient
      • ijabz
        Yes I understand, but of course behind the scenes the seach server would be doing three queries in parallel
      • murdos_
        sure, but it's low level and handled directly by lucene
      • ijabz
        so its quicker from a users pov, but its not anymore efficient from the searchservers pov
      • Would that require some extra work on mb_serrver
      • murdos_
        probably
      • could you mix different types in one MMD response?
      • ijabz
        So its not going to happen for NGS , unlkess you do it
      • Yes, i dont see why not
      • murdos_
        that's not the point, I'm not a paid dev, and I'm not really relying on other people work
      • ijabz
        Also I don't know if there would be an issue from Robs POV allowing you to do that sort of query, because you are kind of getting extra queries per second
      • murdos_
        so either I deliver, or I don't
      • ijabz
        You mean you run search_server standalone, so dont need mb_server
      • MBChatLogger
      • murdos_
        re extra queries, I'm considering allowing only web interface on mb.org to do such queries
      • ijabz: I would also do the mb_server required work
      • ijabz
        Hmm, (backtracking) one on my irittations is when you can do something on the website but not with the wenbservice
      • okay, well i don't have any problem with it myself
      • teatime ..
      • ocharles
        nikki: that's an MBS issue
      • nikki
        ok
      • kurtjx joined the channel
      • luks
        nikki: thanks for the mail, that's exactly what I needed
      • I'll go with the <old>=link0 option
      • it's easier to swap them all once they are consistent
      • nikki
        k :)
      • ijabz joined the channel