But on MB it's so hard to keep track of the recordings. Wouldn't it be possible to merge all of them and have particular relationships on album pages and special 'Artist as credited' ?
2021-05-03 12300, 2021
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2021-05-03 12334, 2021
srxl
Given two albums, "Foobar" and "Foobar (acoustics)", where the latter contains acoustic versions of some tracks from the former, are these a part of the same release group?
2021-05-03 12306, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
srxl : theoretically, it should be in two different RGs, the same as instrumental versions
2021-05-03 12321, 2021
srxl
Thought so - just wanted to make sure
2021-05-03 12334, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
when the content is different (as in no tracks are the same), it's another RG
2021-05-03 12351, 2021
srxl
this album also had a deluxe version, so i wasn't sure if it was a similar case
2021-05-03 12316, 2021
Cheezmo
Does the deluxe version have both versions together on one release?
2021-05-03 12358, 2021
srxl
The deluxe version has all tracks from the initial album release + 3 new releases and some remixes of the other tracks
2021-05-03 12324, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
then it should be with the initial album RG !
2021-05-03 12341, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
as it is just an "improvement" of the original version
2021-05-03 12346, 2021
srxl
yep, the deluxe version is in the same group already :)
2021-05-03 12351, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
Perfect !
2021-05-03 12358, 2021
srxl
but the acoustic version should be separate, correct?
2021-05-03 12324, 2021
Cheezmo
If it is sold separately and not part of the deluxe, yes.
2021-05-03 12345, 2021
srxl
which it is, so separate RG it is
2021-05-03 12312, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
@cheezmo
2021-05-03 12321, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
any idea for the question I asked previously ?
2021-05-03 12326, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
(sorry for the savage ping ahah)
2021-05-03 12322, 2021
Cheezmo
No problem. I'm not really a Jazz expert so all I can really do is agree with you it looks like a mess ;-)
2021-05-03 12314, 2021
yvanzo
Isn’t the Deluxe version just a compilation? If yes, it would qualify as a separate RG.
2021-05-03 12351, 2021
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2021-05-03 12311, 2021
Cheezmo
@yvanza Not a compilation of previously released material, the original album plus extra bonus tracks.
2021-05-03 12338, 2021
yvanzo
Recordings can already be listed as tracks with different titles and artist credits for different releases.
2021-05-03 12309, 2021
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2021-05-03 12302, 2021
zas
Mapache_del_Rato: on which basis does RYM group all those releases? While I agree MB should have better way to display variants, I'm not sure how it should be done. All those musical collaborations are around Miles Davis, so perhaps we should have a relationships to denote this (is there one? if not, ...). Did you create a related ticket already?
2021-05-03 12320, 2021
zas
May be that's something that should be discussed on forums
2021-05-03 12347, 2021
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2021-05-03 12304, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
zas : on the basis that every album by Miles Davis should be on one page I think. "Miles Davis Quintet" exists but is only a display name with the relationships of every musician who collaborated to the album. This way you can have a clear and understandable DB policy with centralized data
2021-05-03 12304, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
I didn't create a ticket yet, just wanted to discuss it with you first :)
MBS-10868: Consolidated views of artist + associated "eponymous" groups
2021-05-03 12321, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
Thanks for the link chaban !
2021-05-03 12322, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
It's indeed definitely similar.
2021-05-03 12322, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
Miles Davis was never alone on his albums. On "Bitches Brew", an album under just "Miles Davis", there is Chick Corea, John McLaughlin, etc.
2021-05-03 12323, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
The only difference between "Bitches Brew" and let's say "Miles Smiles" is the name on the cover (Miles Davis Quintet on the latter). But it still is a Miles Davis record that should appear on the same page somehow.
2021-05-03 12323, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
While "A person can't have members", a release can. And I don't see what data would we lose while the clarity of Miles Davis discography would be cleary improved. Or am I not seing something ?
2021-05-03 12319, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
"Yngwie J. Malmsteen’s Rising Force" is not really a band in the typical sense. It has always been a backing band for Yngwie and you can see on the relationships page that it's incredibly messy.
2021-05-03 12320, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
Wouldn't we greatly benefit to have specific relationships on releases' page instead of having a separate "band" page ? Not to mention how it messes up softwares and databases that depend on MB
2021-05-03 12320, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
Thanks for the ticket zas but I can't help thinking that it would only be a band-aid on an open wound (as we say in French haha)
2021-05-03 12348, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
Consolidation is cool but it's not the real solution imho
2021-05-03 12349, 2021
reosarevok
But nothing stops you already now from looking at all releases / recordings Miles Davis is linked to, right?
2021-05-03 12359, 2021
reosarevok
Whoever the official artist name on the cover is
2021-05-03 12315, 2021
reosarevok
Or am I missing something?
2021-05-03 12341, 2021
reosarevok
(other than people sometimes not bothering to enter that data, but then people need to get educated about entering it)
2021-05-03 12302, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
@reosa
2021-05-03 12311, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
oops
2021-05-03 12339, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
reosarevok : how without opening 6 or 7 different pages and comparing them ?
Same for Yngwie Malmsteen, "Rising Force" and "Marching Out", two of his most famous albums, don't appear on his page. This is so confusing for new users as well as databse management
2021-05-03 12303, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
reosarevok : I strongly feel that your link is proving my point. How is that list clear and intelligible ?
2021-05-03 12327, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
There is no way today on MB to see Miles Davis' discography as we can see every artist's discography
2021-05-03 12329, 2021
reosarevok
How much more clear could it be than "here's a list of every place Miles Davis played and what and when if we know it"?
2021-05-03 12332, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
6 pages of recordings are so unclear, it's a nightmare to browse
2021-05-03 12343, 2021
reosarevok
I mean, artist names on covers are and have always been bullshit
2021-05-03 12352, 2021
reosarevok
But if we have them, we should follow them
2021-05-03 12308, 2021
reosarevok
Otherwise you might as well just get rid of the concept of a release artist and only follow the relationships
Showing releases from groups with member relationships is a really good idea in general (even if just for some relationships)
2021-05-03 12334, 2021
reosarevok
Mapache_del_Rato: well, that's claiming obviously absurd stuff (Miles Davis isn't also known as "Miles Davis and His Orchestra" and that's disregarding the value of the orchestra completely), but leaving that asid
2021-05-03 12336, 2021
reosarevok
*aside
2021-05-03 12341, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
I am not saying we should not follow names on covers. But we should also make them intelligible for database purposes. How can someone understand Miles Davis' discography by clicking on several pages and comparing them manually ?
2021-05-03 12315, 2021
reosarevok
Well, we can do what the ticket suggests and make a second layer on top of it that combines eponymous stuff
2021-05-03 12325, 2021
reosarevok
As a visualization aide
2021-05-03 12331, 2021
reosarevok
But I understand you don't think that's enough
2021-05-03 12354, 2021
elomatreb[m]
From the looks of it RYM treats the group names as simple aliases, which sort of ends up devaluing the other members of the groups
2021-05-03 12329, 2021
reosarevok
How else do you do it, without completely ignoring the fact that "Miles Davis Quintet" implies a very different thing that "The Great Miles Davis" as a release credit? (which you lose if both are just linked as credits for Miles Davis)
2021-05-03 12353, 2021
elomatreb[m]
The issue with member relationships that change a lot being hard to understand/visually confusing should ideally be solved with a feature that generates a visual overview of members over time
2021-05-03 12300, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
"Miles Davis Quintet" and "Yngwie Malmsteen's Rising Force" are not classic bands but backing bands with constant line up evolutions. Considering them as bands may be logical but it's messing discographies at a grotesque level
2021-05-03 12313, 2021
elomatreb[m]
Wikipedia has nice graphics for music groups with changing members
2021-05-03 12324, 2021
reosarevok
elomatreb[m]: that'd be neat, but probably doesn't help with this issue :)
2021-05-03 12329, 2021
reosarevok
I do still want it tho
2021-05-03 12349, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
elomatreb[m] : "members" (it's musicians who sometimes worked on a single album) are always credited on albums' pages
2021-05-03 12306, 2021
reosarevok
Mapache_del_Rato: the same can be said of Nine Inch Nails. The only difference is that the artists here decided to be inconsistent
2021-05-03 12311, 2021
elomatreb[m]
you can definitely do that on MB already though
2021-05-03 12314, 2021
reosarevok
And have some albums under their name and others not
2021-05-03 12328, 2021
reosarevok
One must assume there's a reason they didn't put all out under their name only
2021-05-03 12333, 2021
elomatreb[m]
It doesn't override the cover-derived release artist credit though
2021-05-03 12334, 2021
reosarevok
s
2021-05-03 12337, 2021
reosarevok
eh
2021-05-03 12353, 2021
reosarevok
Sometimes deciding to credit collaborators enough to say it's a quintet, sometimes not
2021-05-03 12346, 2021
reosarevok
The appropriate personnel for each record should in any case be linked at the release level, so the info should be there :)
2021-05-03 12356, 2021
reosarevok
All a credit does is say "this is the credit"
2021-05-03 12337, 2021
reosarevok
We could find out later that Miles Davis didn't even play on one album and were just sipping some drink while a session musician did all the work, and the credit would still be Miles Davis if that's on the cover :)
2021-05-03 12352, 2021
elomatreb[m]
And that combined with having the releases from eponymous groups displayed on the individuals overview page should be basically equivalent to what RYM does
2021-05-03 12348, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
reosarevok : if you have an albul under Miles Davis with "Miles Davis Quintet" as credited artist and relationships to every musician who played and collaborated on the album, wouldn't it be enough ?
2021-05-03 12348, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
I mean, Quintet is only a "marketing" or "typical" term. On other albums with only Miles Davis on the cover, there is always other musicians and sometimes really famous (Chick Corea for one)
2021-05-03 12358, 2021
reosarevok
That said, if a site like SC decides to allow users to group several MB entities for a shared discography, I don't think that'd be problematic at all :) The point of open data is letting others use it
2021-05-03 12310, 2021
elomatreb[m]
(SC?)
2021-05-03 12323, 2021
reosarevok
IIRC Mapache_del_Rato works for SensCritique? But maybe I misremember
2021-05-03 12344, 2021
elomatreb[m]
ah, ok. I was thinking Soundcloud, which would have surprised me a lot
2021-05-03 12359, 2021
reosarevok
Mapache_del_Rato: sure, but there's probably a reason they chose to market some as quintet albums and some not :)
2021-05-03 12305, 2021
reosarevok
I doubt they just flipped a coin
2021-05-03 12314, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
The difference with NIN is that it's not an eponymous band. It's a distinct project where you can see the intention of Trent Reznor. It's not "Trent Reznor's industrial project" haha
2021-05-03 12354, 2021
reosarevok
Sure, but let's be honest, the only reason the NIN Ghosts album is under NIN but some of Reznor's soundtrack work is not is because they slapped different names on the cover as well
2021-05-03 12324, 2021
reosarevok
It's basically the same group of people working on very similar music
2021-05-03 12345, 2021
elomatreb[m]
how dare these musicians not nicely conform into our database schemas
2021-05-03 12312, 2021
Mapache_del_Rato
reosarevok : yes absolutely, you are not misremembering! The thing is we don't really want to let users transform the data that exists on MB. We believe that we can be mutually beneficial and that MB's data should be imported as it is. Plus, I'm indeed working with SC but I am also saying that as a long-time MB user.
