#musicbrainz

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      • donredman
        ???

        • 2005-06-04 15529, 2005

      • ruaok
        yeah, I'm about to fan those flames.

        • 2005-06-04 15546, 2005

      • donredman
        good

        • 2005-06-04 15548, 2005

      • ruaok
        Lousiana in the US?

        • 2005-06-04 15552, 2005

      • g0llum
        i guess not US

        • 2005-06-04 15500, 2005

      • g0llum
        where is the other one?

        • 2005-06-04 15503, 2005

      • g0llum is curious

        • 2005-06-04 15508, 2005

      • ruaok
        Nahwlins?

        • 2005-06-04 15525, 2005

      • ruaok
        great city -- just about the only place in the US where you can drink in public.

        • 2005-06-04 15541, 2005

      • donredman
        No, its a museum close to Kopenhagen

        • 2005-06-04 15546, 2005

      • ruaok
        ah.

        • 2005-06-04 15548, 2005

      • g0llum
        ah ok :)

        • 2005-06-04 15509, 2005

      • donredman
        http://www.louisiana.dk/

        • 2005-06-04 15529, 2005

      • donredman
        THey got mobiles of Calder. I love Calder

        • 2005-06-04 15546, 2005

      • donredman
        whatever

        • 2005-06-04 15502, 2005

      • donredman
        ruaok: Yes I read some of your links

        • 2005-06-04 15525, 2005

      • UserErr0r has quit

        • 2005-06-04 15527, 2005

      • donredman
        I do not really believe in this cerebral stuff, but ok let's just take this 150 thig for granted

        • 2005-06-04 15558, 2005

      • donredman
        (I can think of some sociological reasons for this limit, that I prefer, but this is for another time)

        • 2005-06-04 15504, 2005

      • DJKC
        g0llum: heh. Ong Bak is amusing. Thai Jacky Chan is what it makes me think of

        • 2005-06-04 15510, 2005

      • ruaok
        I don't know if I so much beleive in the justificaiton for it, but I've seen a number of 150 limiting cases.

        • 2005-06-04 15517, 2005

      • donredman
        ok

        • 2005-06-04 15524, 2005

      • g0llum
        DJKC: it looks so damn real. these guys are nuts :)

        • 2005-06-04 15543, 2005

      • ruaok would like ot hear the sociological reasons over more beer.

        • 2005-06-04 15556, 2005

      • ruaok
        I'm still bummed we didn't get much time to hang out.

        • 2005-06-04 15510, 2005

      • ruaok
        In a lot of respects you're the person I've been looking for. :-)

        • 2005-06-04 15523, 2005

      • ruaok
        Someone who deeply understands humans AND musicbrainz.

        • 2005-06-04 15524, 2005

      • donredman
        thanks :-))

        • 2005-06-04 15527, 2005

      • g0llum
        lets meet in bern.ch next time ;-)

        • 2005-06-04 15534, 2005

      • ruaok
        you're welcome. :-)

        • 2005-06-04 15543, 2005

      • ruaok
        g0llum: sounds good. I want to see Bern.

        • 2005-06-04 15548, 2005

      • donredman
        if you look at this graph http://radio.weblogs.com/0114726/images/NetworkEc…

        • 2005-06-04 15501, 2005

      • ruaok
        ah eys.

        • 2005-06-04 15506, 2005

      • donredman
        the question to me is: how do we get the upper half working?

        • 2005-06-04 15510, 2005

      • ruaok
        yes, even.

        • 2005-06-04 15511, 2005

      • g0llum
        ruaok: donredman is da man :)

        • 2005-06-04 15520, 2005

      • ruaok
        good question.

        • 2005-06-04 15527, 2005

      • ruaok
        before we delve into that, I have one observations.

        • 2005-06-04 15530, 2005

      • donredman
        There can be mailing lists for the social networks degree, np

        • 2005-06-04 15546, 2005

      • ruaok
        named, expertise in MB (and other F/OSS projects I suppose) is a powerlaw in itself.

        • 2005-06-04 15553, 2005

      • chocomo joined the channel

        • 2005-06-04 15555, 2005

      • chocomo
        hi!

        • 2005-06-04 15503, 2005

      • ruaok waves at chocomo

        • 2005-06-04 15511, 2005

      • chocomo waves back

        • 2005-06-04 15512, 2005

      • donredman
        there can even be small shortlived lists for the creeative networks degree

        • 2005-06-04 15530, 2005

      • ruaok
        donredman: on one side you have VERY few people who understand everything about MB. Even I may not qualify for that anymore.

        • 2005-06-04 15539, 2005

      • donredman
        :-)

        • 2005-06-04 15549, 2005

      • ruaok
        on the other end you have the loooooooooooooooong tail of people who have logged in and never came back.

        • 2005-06-04 15512, 2005

      • ruaok
        so, our community has aspects of the powerlaw as well, which factors into this discussion.

        • 2005-06-04 15549, 2005

      • chocomo
        donredman: OT, sorry: remember my naming AR suggestion?

        • 2005-06-04 15501, 2005

      • ruaok
        well, I see the mapping that might work like this:

        • 2005-06-04 15514, 2005

      • donredman
        as I see it, mb-users was a boundary. It cut off the power law distribution at a certain point

        • 2005-06-04 15534, 2005

      • ruaok
        creative networks: true beginners and people who just want to use the tagger

        • 2005-06-04 15548, 2005

      • ruaok
        social networks: current mb-users

        • 2005-06-04 15559, 2005

      • g0llum can't read that graph, and hopes its because he didnt get much sleep last night

        • 2005-06-04 15559, 2005

      • ruaok
        political networks: mb-experts

        • 2005-06-04 15504, 2005

      • donredman
        now MB has grown and the number of users to the left of the boundary is over 150: Problem. This cannot work as a social network anymore

        • 2005-06-04 15512, 2005

      • donredman
        um, I thnk you got this wrong

        • 2005-06-04 15515, 2005

      • ruaok
        g0llum:you need more context for that.

        • 2005-06-04 15536, 2005

      • ruaok
        ohh, tell me how I got that wrong.

        • 2005-06-04 15537, 2005

      • ruaok listens

        • 2005-06-04 15510, 2005

      • donredman
        true beginners and people who just want to use the tagger form a group of people

        • 2005-06-04 15514, 2005

      • chocomo
        g0llum: you cant look at one and one album anylonger. bug or feature? http://g0llum.dyndns.org/artistpageredesign/showa…

        • 2005-06-04 15539, 2005

      • donredman
        the dynamics between them *cannot* be social network dynamics, because they are too many

        • 2005-06-04 15544, 2005

      • ruaok
        g0llum: http://radio.weblogs.com/0114726/2003/02/12.html

        • 2005-06-04 15518, 2005

      • ruaok
        You're totally right.

        • 2005-06-04 15521, 2005

      • ruaok
        its inverted.

        • 2005-06-04 15527, 2005

      • donredman
        thus we need tools to shape their interaction so that the dynamics between them and the rest of MB is a political network with a power law

        • 2005-06-04 15541, 2005

      • donredman
        the wiki is such a tool

        • 2005-06-04 15543, 2005

      • chocomo pokes cikkolata

        • 2005-06-04 15552, 2005

      • donredman
        well the wiki, WikiDocs and google in combination

        • 2005-06-04 15556, 2005

      • chocomo pokes cikkolata_?

        • 2005-06-04 15556, 2005

      • ruaok
        donredman: well said, hard to implement.

        • 2005-06-04 15559, 2005

      • g0llum
        chocomo: its a mockup only, not a real mb_server

        • 2005-06-04 15521, 2005

      • chocomo
        I know. I was wonderign if it was intentional or not ;)

        • 2005-06-04 15527, 2005

      • ruaok
        but for the level of tagger users, the wiki is read-only and over their heads.

        • 2005-06-04 15528, 2005

      • donredman
        The voting system is such a tool, and you implemented it quite well :-)

        • 2005-06-04 15536, 2005

      • ruaok
        its read-only effectively.

        • 2005-06-04 15537, 2005

      • chocomo
        also yout top menu has lost its lines. :(

        • 2005-06-04 15540, 2005

      • ruaok
        I did?

        • 2005-06-04 15546, 2005

      • chocomo
        but the labums not have them, nice

        • 2005-06-04 15553, 2005

      • donredman
        well, who wrote the code?

        • 2005-06-04 15555, 2005

      • ruaok
        So many people bitch about it, that I get the feeling its not too good.

        • 2005-06-04 15507, 2005

      • ruaok
        Initially I did, but so many people bitch about it.

        • 2005-06-04 15512, 2005

      • ruaok
        But the fact is that it works.

        • 2005-06-04 15541, 2005

      • g0llum bangs his head to the wall

        • 2005-06-04 15544, 2005

      • chocomo tries poking nikki_

        • 2005-06-04 15548, 2005

      • donredman
        It is a political network and I belive it is scalable to the 100.000 of users

        • 2005-06-04 15551, 2005

      • g0llum
        it has taken some time until i recognized you, mo :>

        • 2005-06-04 15554, 2005

      • ruaok
        chocomo: nikki_ is asleep

        • 2005-06-04 15554, 2005

      • chocomo
        :( sorry g0

        • 2005-06-04 15500, 2005

      • chocomo
        aha, typical

        • 2005-06-04 15522, 2005

      • donredman
        But the mailing list (at least with the current social dynamics) is not. That is our problem

        • 2005-06-04 15526, 2005

      • SenRepus has quit

        • 2005-06-04 15527, 2005

      • ruaok
        donredman: that was my original intent.

        • 2005-06-04 15534, 2005

      • ruaok
        with 10,000 users it will work.

        • 2005-06-04 15536, 2005

      • chocomo
        I canged my name to chocomo for her to giggle at and now she's asleep. aw well :)

        • 2005-06-04 15544, 2005

      • ruaok
        unfortunatley it wasn't well suited for 10 users. :-)

        • 2005-06-04 15552, 2005

      • g0llum
        ruaok: hehe

        • 2005-06-04 15503, 2005

      • g0llum
        it doesnt work if there are too many submissions, thou

        • 2005-06-04 15506, 2005

      • ruaok
        donredman: agreed.

        • 2005-06-04 15516, 2005

      • ruaok
        g0llum: actually it does.

        • 2005-06-04 15520, 2005

      • chocomo unsubscribes from the MB mailing list

        • 2005-06-04 15525, 2005

      • donredman
        We have no write medium that is scalable for 100.000 users

        • 2005-06-04 15535, 2005

      • ruaok
        does anyone

        • 2005-06-04 15536, 2005

      • donredman
        that is a medium where they can give input

        • 2005-06-04 15536, 2005

      • ruaok
        ?

        • 2005-06-04 15554, 2005

      • ruaok
        does such a thing exist?

        • 2005-06-04 15554, 2005

      • donredman rephrases

        • 2005-06-04 15519, 2005

      • ruaok
        chocomo: are you kidding or are you in fact unsubscribign?

        • 2005-06-04 15525, 2005

      • ruaok
        if so, why?

        • 2005-06-04 15526, 2005

      • donredman
        Amazon ratings, blog trackbacks, slashdot, our voting system...

        • 2005-06-04 15532, 2005

      • chocomo
        it depends. will that make you sad/mad?

        • 2005-06-04 15535, 2005

      • ruaok
        I feel this is very apropos for our current discussion.

        • 2005-06-04 15536, 2005

      • donredman
        these are *political* networks

        • 2005-06-04 15540, 2005

      • inhouseuk
        surely only a small proportion of those users will actually want to contribute

        • 2005-06-04 15552, 2005

      • g0llum
        ruaok: changes are applied after 7 days without anyone looking at it... not alarming, but it happens

        • 2005-06-04 15555, 2005

      • ruaok
        chocomo: neither. I want to learn from your motiviations.

        • 2005-06-04 15517, 2005

      • ruaok
        g0llum: its not perfect, but a few more tweaks and it could be adapted for a higher flow.

        • 2005-06-04 15526, 2005

      • ruaok
        the system will be in constant flux over time.

        • 2005-06-04 15538, 2005

      • ruaok
        that's just a fact of life with MB.

        • 2005-06-04 15542, 2005

      • chocomo
        ruaok: it is juist to much text from me to effectivly take in over a day to day basis. so it sits in my inbox until the info gets stale anf all ireally can do is read & delete

        • 2005-06-04 15549, 2005

      • ruaok
        inhouseuk: agreed.

        • 2005-06-04 15521, 2005

      • ruaok
        chocomo: ok. I'm not surprised by that. This is the *exact* issue we;re attemping to address.

        • 2005-06-04 15551, 2005

      • donredman
        I just do not have a solution handy now :-(

        • 2005-06-04 15551, 2005

      • chocomo
        also I feel I can safly do this as I'm here at the irc wher I get a more *inner core* feel of the thing

        • 2005-06-04 15511, 2005

      • ruaok
        chocomo: thanks for giving donredman's arguments more weight

        • 2005-06-04 15514, 2005

      • ruaok
        :-)

        • 2005-06-04 15519, 2005

      • chocomo
        sneaky maybe. but much more calm . not aas stressy

        • 2005-06-04 15522, 2005

      • ruaok
        donredman: neither do I.

        • 2005-06-04 15524, 2005

      • g0llum
        ruaok: arent there some mailing list archivers which could provide a better interface

        • 2005-06-04 15534, 2005

      • g0llum
        i googled a bit, but havent found anything just yet

        • 2005-06-04 15547, 2005

      • chocomo
        :)

        • 2005-06-04 15551, 2005

      • ruaok
        g0llum: i think that fiixng a symptom of a larger problem, without fixing the root.

        • 2005-06-04 15516, 2005

      • ruaok
        I think once we address the root of the problem, we may very well fall back to such solutions.

        • 2005-06-04 15523, 2005

      • donredman
        Hmm, to be honest, we do not understand the problem yet

        • 2005-06-04 15539, 2005

      • ruaok
        I'm afraid you're right.

        • 2005-06-04 15502, 2005

      • ruaok
        at the same time, I feel like we're getting a lot closer to the heart of it.

        • 2005-06-04 15518, 2005

      • chocomo
        can I say something?

        • 2005-06-04 15523, 2005

      • ruaok
        pleasde

        • 2005-06-04 15522, 2005

      • donredman listens

        • 2005-06-04 15528, 2005

      • ruaok
        some other thoughs that I came up with last night:

        • 2005-06-04 15541, 2005

      • ruaok
        the tagger users are different from editors.

        • 2005-06-04 15550, 2005

      • chocomo
        I think.. that maybe what's the problem is that there is just to many users of varying interests and varying levels of knowlage that are crammed in one place. sould maybe. we split up mailinglists and make hem alot more *topic-spesific* and have maybe the peopel (stylecouncil?) look at their spesific mailinglist-interst

        • 2005-06-04 15557, 2005

      • ruaok
        we should have some forums that cater to tagger users.

        • 2005-06-04 15506, 2005

      • ruaok
        and others that cater to editors.

        • 2005-06-04 15509, 2005

      • chocomo
        ruaok: yes.

        • 2005-06-04 15526, 2005

      • ruaok
        we need some mechanism that enocourages the right people to move from the former to the latter.

        • 2005-06-04 15539, 2005

      • ruaok
        again, not real clue how to do this, but its an issue.

        • 2005-06-04 15548, 2005

      • donredman
        I know some mechanisms