'(12:21:29 PM) hawke1: A new name on the door does not make it a whole new place / (12:25:50 PM) CallerNo6: It doesn't make it a new "location". It does make it a new "establishment".'
2016-08-18 23142, 2016
Freso
I think you're reading too much into that comment. I know that that's not what he meant.
2016-08-18 23147, 2016
hawke1
Unless I misinterpreted that, and he may have not meant it that broadly.
2016-08-18 23112, 2016
Freso
Re: "names are incidental[/secondary]."
2016-08-18 23145, 2016
CallerNo6
Okay, I should have said "It often makes it a new 'establishment'."
2016-08-18 23159, 2016
Freso
If the place was sold on eBay and the new owners of the Place decided to take it into a completely new direction, I think it would make sense to consider it a new MB:Place.
2016-08-18 23108, 2016
hawke1
Freso: yeah, agreed.
2016-08-18 23131, 2016
hawke1
I wouldn't say "a name change *never* means a new place" either. but I don't think a name change on its own is a new place.
2016-08-18 23150, 2016
Freso
I don't think anyone is claiming that, that I've seen. :)
2016-08-18 23154, 2016
hawke1
That whole lake*(side? view? whatever?) church thing is ... a bit weird.
2016-08-18 23120, 2016
hawke1
But anyway, it's all irrelevant to how we display the place in an AR. :-)
2016-08-18 23107, 2016
Freso
Rachel's comments in that thread was mostly that the MB:Places had undergone significant changes from the point in time they were relevant to any added MB entities.
2016-08-18 23121, 2016
Freso
(As I understood it - I didn't investigate much, if any, admittedly.)
2016-08-18 23107, 2016
hawke1
It sounded to me like it was 'this is no longer a venue, the venue ended when the church bought the place' (which was my initial impression as well when I first read about it)
2016-08-18 23139, 2016
hawke1
That's one reason I prefer to keep the places as-is -- most of the time they could still easily be used as a music venue, if they ever were one.
2016-08-18 23130, 2016
hawke1
A sports arena is still just as suitable for music after you nail a cross to the wall. :-)
2016-08-18 23145, 2016
hawke1
That applies until they knock the building down, I think.
2016-08-18 23157, 2016
Freso
I think it makes sense to make a new Place if it can be considered a new Place. For some people, that means that the building has to be levelled and rebuilt, for others it just means change of ownership/purpose.
2016-08-18 23120, 2016
Freso
As long as we're able to link Places together, I'm happy to accommodate the latter ones.
2016-08-18 23157, 2016
kartikgupta0909 has quit
2016-08-18 23119, 2016
hawke1
Freso: I'd really like better presentation if we want to make it normal to split them.
2016-08-18 23136, 2016
fractalizator joined the channel
2016-08-18 23144, 2016
fractalizator has left the channel
2016-08-18 23135, 2016
CallerNo6
Granted, the real world doesn't really fit into schemas cleanly, but it'd be nice if we could say 'An mb-place is generally a location' or 'An mb-place is generally an establishment'.
2016-08-18 23130, 2016
CallerNo6
I guess right now the defintion leans towards 'location'.
2016-08-18 23110, 2016
Rotab
argh, windows is refusing to recognize this CD completely.. i wonder if it ever worked.
2016-08-18 23113, 2016
Rotab
no disc id for you :[
2016-08-18 23150, 2016
hawke1
CallerNo6: 'establishment' feels really too fuzzy to me though.
2016-08-18 23133, 2016
hawke1
There's a place nearby (now entirely closed) -- formerly the Mission Coffeehouse, which had live music for a longish time. Then eventually that closed and reopened shortly after as 'the afterdark', still with the same kind of live music, basically the same place but with new owners, better lighting and a fresh coat of paint.
2016-08-18 23147, 2016
CallerNo6
more fuzzy than "an artist is a project"?
2016-08-18 23119, 2016
hawke1
New establishment? technically, sure...but for the patrons, nothing really changed.
2016-08-18 23100, 2016
CallerNo6
We'd make a new release because of much smaller differences.
2016-08-18 23112, 2016
CallerNo6
Even though to the listener it's pretty much the same thing.
2016-08-18 23140, 2016
hawke1
Yeah, but releases are actually different *things*
2016-08-18 23157, 2016
CallerNo6
So are establishements.
2016-08-18 23125, 2016
hawke1
If someone (this seems like it might be a neat art project)...if someone were to take a single CD as the only instance of a release and reprint the artwork over it repeatedly....
2016-08-18 23142, 2016
hawke1
or have a digital release with a single piece of artwork that changes over time, procedurally generated with the current timestamp as a seed...
2016-08-18 23155, 2016
CallerNo6
I want that!
2016-08-18 23149, 2016
CallerNo6
I mean, I agree that some changes to a venue are purely cosmetic, and some name changes are really more like "name variations".
2016-08-18 23140, 2016
CallerNo6
3-Com Park will always be Candlestick to some people. Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport will always be "National".
2016-08-18 23102, 2016
hawke1
Yep.
2016-08-18 23124, 2016
CallerNo6
For your coffee place, that doesn't feel like a mere "name variation" to me. (even though I still call Cole Coffee by it's old name 9 years later).
2016-08-18 23100, 2016
basekey joined the channel
2016-08-18 23135, 2016
CallerNo6
the current Place definition doesn't sound to me like "we thought this through carefully, and a Place is usually a location". It sounds more like "Duh, everybody knows that a Place is a place.".
2016-08-18 23106, 2016
basekey has quit
2016-08-18 23104, 2016
simukis_ has quit
2016-08-18 23109, 2016
CatCat is now known as Catgroove
2016-08-18 23127, 2016
yeeeargh joined the channel
2016-08-18 23154, 2016
hawke1
CallerNo6: yeah, but I have no problem with multiple 'establishments' being the same 'place'.
2016-08-18 23107, 2016
CallerNo6
In general?
2016-08-18 23117, 2016
hawke1
For the most part; I could see a few exceptions for that.
2016-08-18 23140, 2016
hawke1
Also in a few cases I could see one 'place' with multiple 'locations'
2016-08-18 23148, 2016
CallerNo6
Sure. If McDonalds moves to the building nextdoor, it's still McDonalds.
2016-08-18 23159, 2016
CallerNo6
So for a release, a new itunes ID and copyright holder is sufficient to make a new release? But for a place, not?
2016-08-18 23123, 2016
CallerNo6
Maybe the analogy doesn't exactly work. Oh well.
2016-08-18 23101, 2016
simukis_ joined the channel
2016-08-18 23147, 2016
simukis_ has quit
2016-08-18 23100, 2016
hawke1
CallerNo6: If the place gets a new copyright holder, it's a new release. ;-)
2016-08-18 23111, 2016
Freso
#placesarereleasestoo
2016-08-18 23120, 2016
hawke1
CallerNo6: But more seriously, I think there's a distinction in that releases are all separate artifacts. We're not talking about the same actual physical object changing.
2016-08-18 23101, 2016
simukis_ joined the channel
2016-08-18 23115, 2016
hawke1
or I should say that with physical releases, they're all separate artifacts. The question of whether a digital release is an artifact is a little fuzzier I suppose
2016-08-18 23102, 2016
simukis_ has quit
2016-08-18 23132, 2016
mg joined the channel
2016-08-18 23106, 2016
Zastai joined the channel
2016-08-18 23117, 2016
simukis_ joined the channel
2016-08-18 23155, 2016
hawke1 is now known as hawke
2016-08-18 23121, 2016
Zastai has quit
2016-08-18 23140, 2016
regagain has quit
2016-08-18 23111, 2016
yeeeargh has quit
2016-08-18 23118, 2016
basekey joined the channel
2016-08-18 23126, 2016
basekey has quit
2016-08-18 23139, 2016
gcilou has quit
2016-08-18 23144, 2016
gcilou joined the channel
2016-08-18 23138, 2016
FergusL
I want to extend the -brainz.org series with the "dancebrainz.org" one, one that adds an ID that identifies the traditional dance the track is based on
I dunno that that requires an entire *brainz system but I support the idea of connecting dances to songs.
2016-08-18 23117, 2016
CatQuest
+1
2016-08-18 23133, 2016
FergusL
in this example track 1 and 12 would have the same DBID (DanceBrainz ID) since they are "bourrées à 3 temps"
2016-08-18 23142, 2016
CatQuest
well we have places and areas, why the hell not dances anyway?
2016-08-18 23158, 2016
CatQuest
it's a good gsoc project honestly
2016-08-18 23105, 2016
chirlu
AllMusic now has an annoying anti-adblocker script. Seems like I will add links to them even more rarely than I did already …
2016-08-18 23129, 2016
CatQuest
I stopped doing it when their pages started "bleeding" (literally breaksing whne i scroll)
2016-08-18 23150, 2016
FergusL
bourrées are great dances which I should teach to anyone
2016-08-18 23106, 2016
CatQuest
anywayi must eat and sleep, talk to you guys tomorrow :D
2016-08-18 23146, 2016
FergusL
see you!
2016-08-18 23131, 2016
CallerNo6
adding dances to mb sounds totally reasonable
2016-08-18 23105, 2016
hawke
FergusL: this has been proposed before; problems IIRC have been that some songs aren't created with a dance in mind, and in theory any dance can be performed to any song.
2016-08-18 23128, 2016
hawke
So that kinda leans towards 'only if noted as such on the release' as a style item or something like that.
2016-08-18 23157, 2016
chirlu
Some think it’s a property of the work, but it mostly isn’t.
2016-08-18 23123, 2016
hawke
chirlu: I think it could be if described properly.
2016-08-18 23135, 2016
hawke
chirlu: 'intended dance' or something.
2016-08-18 23144, 2016
hawke
but yeah, certainly not always and not clearly.
2016-08-18 23117, 2016
chirlu
OK. Then it has no practical relevance because works intended for a certain dance are very rare (mostly limited to classical music).
2016-08-18 23130, 2016
CallerNo6
tango?
2016-08-18 23141, 2016
FergusL
yes, makes sense, it's either on the release or on the title itself, "Mazurka de...", "Bourrée à..." meaning mazurka of something... or bourrée to... someone
2016-08-18 23112, 2016
FergusL
all traditional music from France, Belgium, Italy, Spain, Sweden, Germany etc...
2016-08-18 23155, 2016
CallerNo6
if this is fuzzy or subjective in the way that genre is, then would it be enough to use folksonomy tags?
2016-08-18 23158, 2016
FergusL
but that's not much still, sure
2016-08-18 23112, 2016
FergusL
honestly, I'm suggesting all this because I have personal interest in this music, and I can tell it's really not subjective
2016-08-18 23141, 2016
FergusL
actually, a good dancer can tell what dance it is from just listening to a tune, because the tune is composed in a way that adheres to the dance moves
2016-08-18 23133, 2016
Freso can confirm ^
2016-08-18 23101, 2016
Freso
CallerNo6: It is fuzzy, but not to the degree of "genre"
2016-08-18 23153, 2016
FergusL
also, there are a lot of small differences, sometimes dances are named after the person who invented it
2016-08-18 23117, 2016
FergusL
and might be known just to a few thousand people who had a band play them for them
2016-08-18 23119, 2016
Freso
And a polka in Ireland is not exactly the same as a polka in Denmark is not exactly the same as a polka in Finland.
2016-08-18 23130, 2016
FergusL
and there are numerous derivatives of polkas!
2016-08-18 23137, 2016
CallerNo6
jeez, you two. if you love dance so much, why don't you marry it?
2016-08-18 23140, 2016
CallerNo6
oh, wait.
2016-08-18 23159, 2016
Freso
I would like a DanceBrainz though, but more for choreographies, dance crews, tournament/battle results, etc.
2016-08-18 23152, 2016
FergusL
is that still in the field of traditional dances?
2016-08-18 23104, 2016
Freso
No.
2016-08-18 23113, 2016
Freso
Well, I know of some trad. dance troupes.
2016-08-18 23145, 2016
Freso
And there are competitions/tournaments for trad. dancing.
2016-08-18 23105, 2016
FergusL
I'd love to have my library being sortable "by dance" and for example throw a playlist of only scottishes
2016-08-18 23105, 2016
Freso
But a *Brainz site should not be genre specific.
2016-08-18 23135, 2016
FergusL
or just finding out how many of those dances I have
2016-08-18 23105, 2016
FergusL
(oh, tricky part : some songs have several dances of the same type, some several of differenty types etc...)
2016-08-18 23107, 2016
Freso
I think the best solution right now is to use tags. Something like "dance: schottish" or some such.
2016-08-18 23108, 2016
FergusL
that's right, indeed
2016-08-18 23144, 2016
FergusL
yes I thought about that first
2016-08-18 23113, 2016
FergusL
ha you mean adding a "dance" tag?
2016-08-18 23115, 2016
CallerNo6
more tags!
2016-08-18 23131, 2016
CallerNo6
and more namespaces!
2016-08-18 23114, 2016
FergusL
also, regarding dance, there is the recorded repertoire, and the existing one! so a dance might apply to either tracks or recordings BUT some funny musicians will arrange a tune with the same name and play it as a different dance from the original!
