#musicbrainz

Xof: Freso is right

(I mean, it'll probably still be better to make that edit go through and then fix the release country.)

[Worldwide] are usually digital releases

you guys and your implicit ontologies

there ought to be a rule among people designing interfaces for knowledge representation, something like graceful degradation... don't make me understand your entire world model before I can make plausible contributions :-)

will happily fix to something more plausible or stylish

(presumably UK, since that glorious land is where Hyperion is based)

it's not a big issue

if it's not a big issue, don't make me spend two elapsed days on it

it's already in 3:0 state

well it is now :-)

There are 2 Abstain votes, though

I abstained because the other changes you're making in that edit are too important to lose

I mean, look, I'm as guilty as anyone of trying to represent the world in my projects

It would be easier to let that edit pass and then change the release country

and I understand that quality control is important

Xof: Errr... no, everything is fine. IIRC, the edit will pass within next hours (Abstain votes don't matter)

i learned to be patient

Xof: A few years ago, you'd have to wait 2 weeks %)

but as a moderately-knowledgable time-poor occasional contributor, basically every interaction goes like this: I submit data, it's a bit wrong according to this year's style guides, and I get to wait seven days (or less if I act arsey on IRC) to retag my stuff

xplt: do you know who did the data analysis to motivate the change from 2 weeks?

No

I did

:)

I produced evidence to show that almost all votes came either in the first or last day of the open period

I wonder where those graphs are

on some dust-accumulating laptop somewhere

this is how I remember it, anyway :-)

at least you got votes :p

On the other hand, on comics.org [open database about comic books] ALL the edits are going through peer-review :P [so, it could be worse...]

If you have suggestions for improving the way MB displays its models, etc. to users, _please_ submit them. The complexity of editing is a known issue, and people are working on it, but it's also a hard problem.

np-hard?

don't get me started on how long I had to argue that "contratenor" was not what the style guide thought it was

Leftmost: and believe me, I know it's a hard problem.

I have sympathy, even if it's somewhat frustrated sympathy :)

like: it's a physical release, so no "worldwide"

or no "purchase for download"

I'd be happy if at the "submit edits" stage those consistency checks were carried out if that meant a shorter open period or lower voting threshold or just generally less round-tripping

and if there were a way of capturing those round-trips in comments and distilling them to more consistency checks, great.

MBS-9499: Disable "purchase for download" URL relationship for non-Digital Media releases

there is nothing that speaks against a physical release being worldwide

And if "English" is chosen, then select "Latin" script... :P

its just a very very unlikely case for older releases

This.

There was some discussion about it a while back (I don't know if I can still find it; it might have been on the old forums for all I know)

SothoTalKer: so, make that a warning at the submit edit stage, requiring confirmation

or use the date of the release event as a filter

always allow it to be overridden, but perform as many reasonable checks as possible before submit

(unless it's an ontology violation like MBS-9499 in which case disallow it completely)

MBS-9499: Disable "purchase for download" URL relationship for non-Digital Media releases https://tickets.metabrainz.org/browse/MBS-9499

if you use the release editor, release event comes before you enter the type of the release.

so there is not a good way to check for that :)

at the end it shows you all your edits, batched up

True, but that doesn't mean there can't be a prompt

right before you type your edit note and submit

that's the point for all these consistency checks, failing a more integrated one

yep, let's make every edit require an additional prompt.

no, only those with ontology-violating edits?

"are you sure blabla". and then another, just to be extra safe. "are you really really sure?"

the highly-competent case, with a user who has fully absorbed the musicbrainz ontology and has made no edits with surprising content: no additional prompt (hooray! good!)

the occasional user case, with someone who is a bit out of date but would like to get on with tagging their stuff: prompts in likely cases of mistakes, allowing them to fix them directly: shorter open edit period (hooray! good!)

what made you assume, it's a worldwide release in the first place? just because some people doubt, it is, does not mean they are right :)

finally, the downside case: the highly competent user with an unusual worldwide jewel case release. Oh no! one extra click

so this is an engineering question: how often does the downside case happen compared to the occasional user case?

and what are the relative costs

SothoTalKer: well I am a guest here; my ontology of what a worldwide release means doesn't necessarily match the MB community's and I'm happy, as a guest, to go with my host's interpretation

you could just answer my question, instead :)

Western parochialism? You could get it in the shops here so it was probably available everywhere?

rose-tinted sunglasses?

the sleeve notes don't say "not for sale in the USA"

even digital releases are not "worldwide", since north korea is excluded usually :)

the point is that I don't want to make a strong claim about the release country. Definitely the UK, almost definitely Europe, probably some other places too; worldwide for me is the weakest thing I can say.

But that is apparently not how worldwide is interpreted here, which is what is important

the worldwide statement is a strong one ("it is defintely released worldwide") rather than a weak one ("it's released in more than one country vaguely around this time")

it's not that my assumption is wrong; it's that what I said in my edit doesn't mean to musicbrainz what I thought it meant

mea maxima culpa. [Latin, Latin]

nobody blames you. it's nothing that can't be fixed later.

Xof: You may be interested in https://youtu.be/MQ8wDsRkKeE?t=26m28s

Our UX talk/discussion at the summit this very Sunday.

:-) I'm not feeling blamed, either

SothoTalKer: it's somewhat refreshing being the clueless user for a change

Xof: And your edit got applied. Hooray!

you only make this error once, then you know the drill ;)

I guess I'm trying to give the benefit of (gulp) too many years' experience trying to manage contributions to complex stuff: make it easier for users not to get it wrong

xplt: also, yay

SothoTalKer: there is that, though the danger is that I come back in a year's time and the guidance / ontology / style has changed and I make a related but different error then, too

Freso: is it possible to get captions? :)

SothoTalKer: Are you writing them?

nope

That's your answer right there then.

such meanieness.

xplt: of course I have spent all my musicbrainz time budget this evening arguing on IRC, so... :)

Xof: that's a very good point, thanks. Quesito ^ for the UX talk

(quite a long read but ;) )

howdy reosarevok

it's been a while since I hung out here

Xof: I don't think we can make everything autoedits, tempting as that would be, until we can revert things more easily, so the few days issue will still be an issue

I am now nostalgically trying to find my evidence that the 14-day voting period was too long. How can it have disappeared from the Internet?

But the giving more prompts is definitely something I agree with

^

I can live with a voting period if I don't have to argue with anyone ;-)

i suggested to make votes more prominent already :)

Xof: FWIW, I think one of the reasons that "attributes for all entities" is being held up is exactly that yvanzo is implementing safe guards to not allow e.g. a release "rpm" attribute being applied to a "digital media" or "cd" release.

SothoTalKer: You and dozens of other people in at least the last 10 years...

now, get programming, Freso :)

make us (the community) happy :3

STYLE-55: "Contra-tenor" in vocal lead performance

hey look this one is me

SothoTalKer: I'm not employed as a programmer.

i'm not employed as an editor and i edit anyway :)

SothoTalKer: But I will happily tell you, being a community member, where and how to provide your feedback to developers and even help you get started making PRs yourself.

aha!

MBS-5757: Consider diminishing time edits stay open

ok, nostalgia done

thanks for the therapy everyone

14 days was a bit long, yes

Xof: Cheers.

Freso: maybe you could enable this for the MetaBrainz yt channel? https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/6052538

SothoTalKer: Absolutely! Thanks.

Done.

yay :)

Leo_Verto: https://loujine.github.io/musicbrainz-dataviz/1...

loujine: this is fantastic