#musicbrainz

derwin I prefer to only add an annotation when there are excluded countries in an XW release. I try to avoid adding 50+ countries to the release events.

what happens when a new country is added to the list? will we find each release and add an additional country?

agatzk: yeah, exactly.

agatzk: I just don't want to delete 200 release events.

ultimately my laziness wins out over my thinking it's ugly and stupid.

I hear you on that. I've cleaned out a few (notably the ones that are exluced in Curaçao) and replaced it with XW, but I know some editors prefer to list each country specifically for accuracy.

I just think it's extra stupid, because 99.9999% also have a global digital release on beatport etc.

what is the premise of thinking that there's 200 digitial releases when they're all sent to distrokid on the same day

because they're all actually the same release

to me, a "release" is when the label says "we're releasing this thing" not when the 30 different systems their distributor ships it to post them.

and definitely not when the services downstream of their distributor expands into a new country

it's not a "release event" for every release on their service when spotify adds a new country.

I hear you. We must be careful to distinguish between one release in different countries and different releases.

with physical releases, they were often actually different releases, in terms of the physical object, release date, and so on

But there is a practice on creating ~200 release events to be 100% accurate in terms of countries. XW implies every country, so one exclusion makes it incorrect.

anyway, I should probably stop whining about it here and post to the forums and seek some sort of consensus there. I don't like what a single tool has decided, which spams the database with very low value information.

yes, but a person in curacao can just buy that release from beatport or junodownload.

so what does it mean that it's not "released" there

I probably am also technically making an error when I add the beatport url to the deezer/spotify/itunes release. but it's the same release.

there are only so many ways to do it, but I get you. the problem perhaps comes when trying to reconcile differences between those stores

if there's a different tracklist, that seems significant to me. if there isn't the only difference in terms of release dates is literally how long their systems take to process what distrokid sent them, in 99.9% of cases.

right, like you said. what's the difference? You can read about UPC / digital releases in community forum, but in the end it's up to all of us

who does this information have value to? when?

I know, I know, philosophically, if it exists, it should be uniquely captured

but what we'll end up with is a release per digital store, because each has a slightly different "release event"

fwiw, when I know stores have uploaded it at a different date, I've sometimes considered it the same release

every release becomes [n] releases where [n] is the number of streaming services and digital stores

and the only difference is something no human did with intent

can a release have multiple release dates in the same country? could I spam the database endlessly by releasing and un-releasing a release on bandcamp every day?

I feel like there's something essential about "release" as an event that we're not quite characterizing, which was obvious when it was physical media.

yeah. I could argue similarly to extend this to physical releases like CDs. I see releases that have slightly different IFPI codes, are these separate releases? we'll likely end up with many extremely similar, but with different IFPI codes. Does Discogs way of listing them all in variation work any better? I don't really think so

there's also the issue of the same release but different pressing plants producing the vinyl

In the end we have to focus on the technology and nature of our goal, which is to serve as a source of information to facilitate meaningful conversation about the music. I'm still fairly new to the community, but it seems we're on the right path

so the runout grooves are different but all the art and everything is the same

(and sometimes, presumably, the runout grooves aren't even different, but they were pressed at different plants)

that happened to me today with https://musicbrainz.org/release/09926659-01a9-4... and https://www.discogs.com/George-Carlin-Occupatio...

It seems the general consensus is that if there is a difference that is distinguishable, that's a separate release. folks have however argued that we should keep things together within reason

yeah, I just wonder about the premise of "distinguishable"

people say the pressing plants have a different sound or whatever

exactly. I don't know if it gets more specific that Mould SID

than*

I regularly encounter CDs that are slightly different than all MB and Discogs releases due to mastering or mould SIDs

could one take two different pressing plant releases of a thing, establish each as a reference, and then blind test and determine them via technology?

yeah I don't know about that physical technology, but I assume it's basically "runout grooves" that indicate the "master disc"

ha! I don't think the interpretation of listening will ever serve as an objective source!

and it's the same thing we're talking about, except in that case it's literally exactly the same 1s and 0s except for the IDs

well sure, I was talking about non-subjective measures, where we play back and sample on the same rig, but your digital example eliminates most of the randomness of the vinyl example, heh.

I, personally, tend to think that different matrix/runouts would be different releases. this is kind of leaning on the assumption that all buyers of physical audio media would submit to MB their specific information (oh a perfect world)

but right, the sound is the same, right or left. many of these releases are the same sounds with different metadata

they don't even do that on discogs, which significantly exists to enable them to sell stuff :)

and active archival projects like archive.org don't seem to capture all info, for example their 78s project I don't think catalogs runout groove information...

(do shellacs have runout groove information?)

junodownload and beatport has region exclusion as well

so if I go to beatport from <random country> I will not be allowed to purchase there?

yes

tell me what country you're in and i'll find you an example

oh, I know that there are specific releases which are region restricted

I'm asking the opposite question, about the status of a generic release in a random country no one cares about restricting explicitly

say I'm in Cabo Verde or Burkina Faso, is Beatport available to me or not?

https://i.imgur.com/TgZWFm6.png US proxy w/ junodownload

right, US example is explicitly not what I'm assuming

that is "someone has explicitly made it unavailable in the US"

opt-in, vs. opt-out.

I'm not sure. they do implement region locking and I assume they would follow what countries the label tell them they can sell it in

I, perhaps naively, think it's likely that there's a catch-all "global" store which you are put in by default. Maybe that's a naive assumption.

there isn't. i've seen releases i've been locked out of in sweden which has half of the population of burkina faso, so even a more minor example than the one you gave

" Electronic music’s digital mecca may be available in more than 220 countries, but Beatport today (Jan. 28) announced the launch of a completely localized version of its music service in the Netherlands. "

" There are 195 countries in the world today. "

so, right, my point is that someone might care about the (very wealthy) [x] million people who live in sweden, which is part of the EU and subject to its copyright treaties

they might very well not care about the [2x] people who live in burkina faso

pretty much anywhere a VPN might proxy to is a country large enough for a record company to theoretically bother to care about its rights there

I am broadly skeptical that a country that says it operates in "220 countries" blocks out everyone else.

all of those countries have associated ip ranges so blocking them is easy

right, but their press release/billboard says they operate in 220, which is very close to the highest number I can find for countries in the world

the idea that it's opt-in to all of those countries, instead of opt-out of ones you want to restrict, seems unlikely.

iow, the default is "sell everywhere"

" Beatport is the world’s leading online provider of music, tools and resources customized for the unique needs and demands of DJs. With almost 40 million unique users globally and available in more than 230 countries "

hah! 230!

" United Nations list (193 recognised countries) and the FIFA football list (211 members) "

ftr i don't midn the release events being what they are. but i loathe those annotations. i don't see the point of "repriducing the info of the release events" anyway?

the annotations could instead be the countries that are excluded. and yes. if a release is actually available in a different country set in beatport than eg. itunes or whatever. then the biggest group one cancells out the smallest?

I mean. personally I find it interesting that "some country" isn't included. (and I thin kit's important to highlight that unfarness (which is almost always some 3rd country they don't care about))

but i do think derwin has a point when it's not maliciously intended but jsut "nobody operates in that country just yet

again, I think that if someone wants to go and actually add every country *but* that one or then fine. do that. but I also thin kit's *fine* to add something as *worldwide* .PROVIDED you actually put in the _excluded_ countries in the annotation

the annotation includes a date which is useful

and?

dates can als obe put in releaseevents

anyway i have no issue with some lines about stuff.

it's a the hugeass list of countries with country-codes/flags

it's the hugeass list of countries with country-codes/flags that I have an issue with

i can't even accuratly get the needed information out if it. it's jsut one big blub of names

~date of when the countries were retrieved~

why are the falg emoji things even included?

if it where jsut an alfabetical list of countries *myabe

*still* i thin khaving the list with just 2these are excluded at [date] time" : would be more usefull

the flags make it insanely easy to parse

what

no

it's ugly af

all you have to do is regex select all the emoji ranges

uhm. i'm a human i don't od regex

it's ugly af, i can't parse (heh) reading that big blok of blub

how is having to use a computer to regex a list supposed to be usefull?

for annotations, that's supposed to be information for human to read. for computers, there's the database *itself!*

and every date event is added there too

*release event*

it's duplicated in the annotation!

i wouldnt mind if it was just the country unicode flags or iso 3166-1 2 letter codes but this information is clearly useful

don't get me wrong. i get why this is useful for osme. but i *stilll* maintain that it coudl be done *better*