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      • derwin
        ev: yeah, that's one of the weird things about the annotation, it's like "here's where it was avaialable.. when we created this annotation"
      • ev
        tigerman325: I suspect part of the reason that phonographic copyright is put in the annotation is that streaming services frequently mix release label and copyright holder up (if the streaming services treat them differently at all).
      • derwin: as far as I can tell there is no difference between what is in the annotation and what is in the list
      • apart from it also adding things that should be put as a relationship, like the phonographic copyright
      • derwin
        ? there's also the release date info on the country release dates?
      • maybe I'm missing what you're comparing, I'm kinda out of it lol
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      • Misty_Pond
        is there a format option for CD-ROM?
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      • JesseW
        Misty_Pond: maybe Data CD?
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      • daniels35
        hi, I'm trying to add a CD release with 2 discs. I've already added the first: https://musicbrainz.org/release/52c9490f-aecf-4... but struggle to add the 2nd disc. I'm using "Sound Juicer" on ubuntu which allows to "edit album" and should upload the Disc ID. Can someone provide resources where I can find how to add the 2nd disc?
      • I can offer a chat with screen share, e.g. via some jitsi instance
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      • derwin
        daniels35: hi, you're in the right place
      • daniels35: I unfortunately do not know the answer to your question, and it's the time of day where people are most likely to be asleep
      • but if you stick around, someone should be able to help
      • daniels35
        Thanks :) I can wait
      • derwin
        " MusicBrainz Picard 1.4.2 · "the best downloader for mod files!". "
      • ... wut
      • outsidecontext
        derwin: lol, where have you found this gem?
      • derwin
        but weirdly, the page in question doesn't seem to have that said
      • outsidecontext
        weird indeed. and Picard not even can read mod files :D
      • CatQuest
        ev, derwin, tigerman325, flamingspinach : I *really* like the idea that surfaced about "per service" release event tbh. I think in all ways that would be the most *accurate* as well as actulaly be useful for people's uses (ie "when was this available at X site") as well as limiting the amount of countries, we could instead have a per service release event, then each service could have a centralised list of countries where it's available (
      • linked in our db!)
      • it woudl mena creating "countries" of services. but i na way evne that kidna makes sense
      • flamingspinach
        I guess that sounds useful, but why are you pinging me about it in particular?
      • CatQuest
        it would mean making "areas" of services
      • flamingspinach: I'm pinging everyone who ahs talked about this :)
      • flamingspinach
        where did I talk about that? must have been many years ago lol
      • CatQuest
      • wait i'm confusing yo uwith osmeoen am i not
      • sorry sorry!
      • so sorry
      • flamingspinach
        np haha
      • CatQuest
        it was finalsummer not flamingspinach
      • headdesk
      • it was th f something s something that tripped me up :P
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      • derwin
        CatQuest: yeah, I've been wondering about it, I am little less comfortable with companies-as-countries, but something about per service release dates does really click for me
      • CatQuest
        it'll even be quite scaleable and neatly fit into liek. *reality*
      • reosarevok: your look on this?
      • yea company as country is kinda weird. but saying that "spotify is an "area" is kind of... accurate?
      • we could give area tyes for this
      • types*
      • like. [worldwide] kinda means "the internet"
      • it's using areas as a hack
      • the other alternative is to create anther entity which *can be used liek countries in releases*
      • and that's definitely a scema change or my name isn't cat
      • the only problem is that if ex spotify was added as an "area" then peopel would say that os and so person was *from spotefy*
      • so it's probably a schema change anyway to put in code to allow exclusion from the rel-country list :/
      • elomatreb[m]
        Keeping a list of countries up to date and matching peoples expectations is already hard enough, managing a list of online stores (unless you want to arbitrarily limit it to Spotify/Deezer/Apple) would be pretty annoying
      • derwin
        so, that's part of what I wonder about. is it that they're stores, or that they're streaming services. you can buy stuff on tidal and bandcamp and itunes, but not spotify/deezer...
      • elomatreb[m]
        arguably the "available for streaming" URLs already fill this purpose fwiw, it this were supplemented with a style guideline like "set XW for digital releases that are not intentionally country-restricted (like Japan-only releases)" it would be pretty good I think
      • CatQuest
        honestly how many stores are there and how many countries are there?
      • not a bad idea either
      • elomatreb[m]
        Online stores definitely change more often than countries do
      • With the relatively small set we have in the URL database it already starts having problems, things like the apple music logo being outdated for long time
      • derwin: I would say that distinction is rather arbitrary, as you can stream on Bandcamp too but you can also download files from e.g. Deezer (which is a fairly popular thing to do actually)
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      • tigerman325
        I still see nothing wrong with just leaving it like it is. The country list is collapsible. So there's over 200 countries on a list. You see 3, unless you click to see more. Releases aren't based on stores.
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      • aidalgol
        Is there any way I should indicate that these recordings are covers? https://musicbrainz.org/release/6ded333d-ed44-4...
      • ev
        aidalgol: what you do, is you link each recording to the work in question, and select 'cover'
      • aidalgol
        OK, there does not seem to already be a recording for most of these, so that will take a while.
      • ev
        aidalgol so for the Nat King Cole one you can select this one https://musicbrainz.org/work/2e99ea26-6e86-3c23...
      • although since it's jazz, are they actually covers as such in the way that pop songs are covers? maybe someone else knows more about jazz than me
      • aidalgol
        Someone else had gone through other jazz releases I've added and added "cover" relationships.
      • But they probably also knew more about jazz than us. :P
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      • Freso
        CatQuest: With your approach, how would you note that something was released on Spotify but not made available, through Spotify, in, say, Norway?
      • derwin
        what does "in norway" mean? if you have an american spotify account and are in norway, it is available in norway.
      • because Spotify doesn't geo-lock via IP, it region-locks by country-of-account
      • I also think that beatport confounds this idea a lot. they don't publish countries of availability through their API, AFAICT. so literally the only way you know if it's not available in a geo-ip block is if you try to buy and it denies you.
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      • CatQuest
      • BrainzBot
        You're doing good work, reosarevok for https://tickets.metabrainz.org/browse/MBS-9419!
      • CatQuest
        Freso: honestly, no idea.
      • does spotify do this kind of thing?
      • ie, be available in x, y z countries but exclude y country for some reason anyway?
      • reosarevok
        Yes, that's why people add the stupidly long lists
      • CatQuest
        rather than be available in xyz country and thne *later* be available in v country as well
      • reosarevok
        Well, not so much Spotify does it but the content owners, but
      • CatQuest
        honestly the release events don't bother me, it's the annotations i don't understand
      • isn't it duplication of data?
      • ev
        it seems to be implying to my mind a deficiency in relationships, because the release relationships don't actually imply current availability
      • the conflict between what the style says and what these lists actually tend to mean (they mean current availability) is the problematic part to my mind
      • CatQuest
        especially since "current availablilty" is a n ver changing thing
      • and retroactivly changing and
      • ev
        the phonographic copyright thing could mean 'I don't know what label the spotify © message means' but it also shows that that message doesn't refer to a particular release label
      • ie obivously the label that says "do not use for releases" shouldn't be used for releases, but the streaming services always still state the phonographic copyright holder as the nominal label
      • reosarevok
        "Current availability" is not generally a thing we have historically cared about
      • CatQuest
        eh I mean the long list of countries with flag unicodes (which only show up as bold large capital letters for user without colour emoji fonts (or old fonts))
      • reosarevok
        If something stops being available the appropriate streaming rel can be set as ended, but I guess that only works if it stops being available altogether
      • ev
        reosarevok: OK, that's as good an argument against any about using those lists then. I would just remove those lists based solely on that, and I doubt anyone could reasonably vote me down, if it was originally added based on just the atisket output.
      • reosarevok
        If they take it off in one country only, then probably no good way to indicate it rn
      • Whether we should care is an open question (I certainly do not)
      • (since it seems pretty rare)
      • ev
        to my mind, the issue of whether to create a new relationship [for the atisket output for these streaming services] basically hinges on whether we should be expressing digital availability of releases in the database at all. it is a nebulous and fluid thing, and if we do I would say a bot should set this, not humans.
      • sorry, expressing 'current' availability
      • Freso
        I don’t think the atisket annotation links are meant to express current availability either. They express availability at one, fixed, point in time (namely the time the release/annotation was added).
      • *lists
      • CatQuest
        basically hinges on whether we should be expressing digital availability of releases in the database at all. it is a nebulous and fluid thing, and if we do I would say a bot should set this, not humans.
      • ^^^^ this
      • Freso
        Anyway. Going to soak up some nuclear fusion radiation before final astronomy class.
      • CatQuest
      • Freso: explain
      • ev
        Freso: as far as I am concerned this is equivalent to current availability .it's current availability at one point in time, *possibly* at release, but atisket output on its own is not enough to verify this
      • CatQuest
        . sunlight?
      • ev
        the point is that it is likely not the availibility at release, which is what the relationship it reuses actually implies
      • in the long forum post, tigerman325 suggested several other sites that can be used to verify this, but most of the edits don't use these
      • they are solely put through using atisket, with no other sources cited
      • obviously the edits put through close to release are likely going to be correct, but there are numerous edits put through years later
      • CatQuest
        i think tigerman325 works very dilligently doing it too. ther my be other using this tool which do not do o
      • so*
      • or even know that to do so
      • the tool is useful, but it might be used wrongly by peopel too
      • ev
        the worst offending release I know of certainly wasn't - two releases were added to its release group with a conflict between the dates, there was no attempt to verify these even though it was obviously a parsing error on the part of one of the streaming sites (2012-04-09 vs 2012-09-04) and this was put through in 2020
      • this one was also XW according to atisket (all countries satisfied) but it still had the list put through for both
      • CatQuest
        i susspec that 2edit history" links being super unubiquitous doesn't help!
      • ev
        so, it seems to me that either we say 'verify that this was the availability on release' (avoid adding a new relationship) or we think of a way to express digital availibility differently and get atisket to use that.
      • CatQuest
        i like that last idea the best
      • ev
        i think the problem is that we need to make it easier for people to add these relationships because they exist, and the current solution isn't ideal
      • rather than blame people for adding the wrong relationships which isn't really fair
      • there isn't any evidence of malicious intent as such, so it's not anyone's fault as such.
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