bleh. how do yo udo indent on our wiki (putting a " " before a sentence jsut maes it like in a grey box with monospacefont)
2020-01-08 00820, 2020
BilleeKhoj
anyone?
2020-01-08 00858, 2020
SothoTalKer
use :
2020-01-08 00845, 2020
BilleeKhoj
cheers
2020-01-08 00810, 2020
SothoTalKer
:-)
2020-01-08 00845, 2020
c1e0 has quit
2020-01-08 00825, 2020
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2020-01-08 00849, 2020
cleo is now known as Guest9128
2020-01-08 00806, 2020
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2020-01-08 00855, 2020
reosarevok
yvanzo, bitmap: back to Wed meetings, right?
2020-01-08 00808, 2020
yvanzo
alright!
2020-01-08 00824, 2020
SothoTalKer
mhhh wet meetings :D
2020-01-08 00823, 2020
SothoTalKer
is there no better way than to make a ticket for each new area? :P
2020-01-08 00829, 2020
reosarevok
Nope, that I know
2020-01-08 00800, 2020
yvanzo
automating areas management was a suggestion for gsoc btw
2020-01-08 00833, 2020
prabal has quit
2020-01-08 00834, 2020
Freso
yvanzo: Do we have a reliable source for this? Neither Wikidata nor Geonames (which are two mostly used now) are good enough.
2020-01-08 00845, 2020
yvanzo
How so? Aren’t these our current references to create areas?
2020-01-08 00815, 2020
BilleeKhoj
yea. doing it automatically is how we ended p with half a million 200pop US dupe-name villages ¬___¬
2020-01-08 00821, 2020
BilleeKhoj
(I still say we should remove any of those unless in use (artist, recording, place event or user is attached) and thne re-add as requested)
2020-01-08 00801, 2020
BilleeKhoj
I mean I got no issue with some dupenamed us village beign re-added if a concert was held there or an artist came fro mthere or whatever
2020-01-08 00821, 2020
BilleeKhoj
but lets be realistic? many of those will *never* hav a use in mb
2020-01-08 00814, 2020
BilleeKhoj
it's also this dilemma: either we remove them, or we add so many villages fro mevery other country. that is impossible and unmanageable
2020-01-08 00836, 2020
BilleeKhoj
unused villages shoudl be removed and thne readded as needed
2020-01-08 00811, 2020
BilleeKhoj
that way our database doesn't look like some US village directory or whatever
2020-01-08 00828, 2020
BilleeKhoj
I mean. to a russian this will look odd probably :D
2020-01-08 00813, 2020
yvanzo
the idea was not to dup the whole wikidata/geonames, just to automate using it to create missing areas on demand
2020-01-08 00824, 2020
BilleeKhoj
and.. that worked badly :D
2020-01-08 00856, 2020
yvanzo
it has not been implemented, or am I missing something?
2020-01-08 00810, 2020
BilleeKhoj
i thought we were talking aobut old areabot or what
2020-01-08 00814, 2020
BilleeKhoj
i may be mistaken then
2020-01-08 00804, 2020
yvanzo
oh, alright, I don't know much about areabot, it has probably been dismissed a while ago
2020-01-08 00811, 2020
BilleeKhoj
yea it has
2020-01-08 00822, 2020
BilleeKhoj
also that is why drsaunders is doing it manually
2020-01-08 00839, 2020
BilleeKhoj
but there is still a lot of unused villages in the database :/
2020-01-08 00808, 2020
yvanzo
That many?
2020-01-08 00814, 2020
BilleeKhoj
honestly
2020-01-08 00822, 2020
BilleeKhoj
i don't know the numbers. but I think there was quite a few
2020-01-08 00850, 2020
yvanzo
That would be nice to have some feedback about the old areabot, for the record, to prevent having the same issues again.
2020-01-08 00857, 2020
BilleeKhoj
because and this was the thing with areabot, is that for some reason, us-villages in wikidata was labelled with.. I don't remember. some spesific property which it was to interpret as "this should be added", a thing we hadn't known in beforehand
2020-01-08 00810, 2020
reosarevok
I think there shouldn't be a problem with that tbh
2020-01-08 00820, 2020
reosarevok
Right now we show the most used areas on top
2020-01-08 00820, 2020
yvanzo
I cannot find anything about AreaBot on the wiki. It is just mentioned in comment to MBS-8361
Villages were marked as villages, we were supposed to add those - the problem wasn't that, but that the rest of the world just didn't have proper data
2020-01-08 00846, 2020
BilleeKhoj
reosarevok: true, and that helps *a LOT* but there is the issue with al lthe wrongly added relationships before that was fixed :/
2020-01-08 00855, 2020
reosarevok
That's probably better nowadays, but still not great
2020-01-08 00810, 2020
reosarevok
Wikidata still has crappy coverage of many non-Western areas
2020-01-08 00816, 2020
BilleeKhoj
indeed
2020-01-08 00847, 2020
reosarevok
(it used to be AWFUL which is how we had every tiny village in the US but were lacking most big cities in, say, Romania, not to mention something like Indonesia)
2020-01-08 00831, 2020
BilleeKhoj
but iirc it was also that areas which outside of the us wouldn't be lablled as "village" because the pop was too low, *is* marked as village becasue it's soem "official" designation in the us or something
2020-01-08 00810, 2020
BilleeKhoj
in addition to what yo ujsut said
2020-01-08 00841, 2020
reosarevok
I don't remember tbh
2020-01-08 00843, 2020
BilleeKhoj
I mean. as long as there is something musically related i'm all for adding it. but there are going ot be palces that have a population of 200 and wil lnever
2020-01-08 00803, 2020
BilleeKhoj
(or when, eventually possibly. we can *then* add it)
2020-01-08 00806, 2020
reosarevok
I feel having everything is better than not having stuff unless we can find a neat way of auto-adding
2020-01-08 00807, 2020
reosarevok
But
2020-01-08 00820, 2020
reosarevok
iNaturalist has an interesting way of dealing with missing species
2020-01-08 00829, 2020
BilleeKhoj
...
2020-01-08 00850, 2020
reosarevok
When the user requests them, it automatically searches a few databases, and adds them automatically based on that
2020-01-08 00801, 2020
BilleeKhoj
cool
2020-01-08 00808, 2020
reosarevok
Us doing the same based on Wikidata would probably work (I guess that's kinda what yvanzo suggested?)
2020-01-08 00813, 2020
BilleeKhoj
hmm
2020-01-08 00823, 2020
BilleeKhoj
atleast having an automatic ticket creation!
2020-01-08 00833, 2020
reosarevok
Where rather than needing a ticket, you'd have a way to say "search for this area in Wikidata" at the bottom of a MB search
2020-01-08 00842, 2020
reosarevok
Like we have "Add a work" or whatevs
2020-01-08 00842, 2020
BilleeKhoj
oohhh
2020-01-08 00803, 2020
BilleeKhoj
but what if it's not found?
2020-01-08 00809, 2020
BilleeKhoj
(or, user error)
2020-01-08 00815, 2020
reosarevok
Well, then we'd still need to add it in Wikidata I guess
2020-01-08 00825, 2020
reosarevok
We could still keep AREQ for that if needed
2020-01-08 00828, 2020
reosarevok
But it'd automate a lot of cases I suspect
2020-01-08 00834, 2020
BilleeKhoj
hm! yea
2020-01-08 00849, 2020
BilleeKhoj
and if things are well linkied in WD the relationships can be propagated in mb as well
2020-01-08 00853, 2020
reosarevok
(iNaturalist does it so that if it's not in the automatic DBs, you can request it manually)
2020-01-08 00803, 2020
BilleeKhoj
sounds liek a plan tbh
2020-01-08 00824, 2020
BilleeKhoj
(but with the addition that we run a cronjob to remove every village with ### pop that is not in use)
2020-01-08 00831, 2020
BilleeKhoj
(maybe i'll be wrong and there wil lbe liek 10)
2020-01-08 00835, 2020
reosarevok
Yeah. iNat adds the parent taxons automatically based on that data, and that should also be doable in MB: "if we have the parent in MB, link it, if not, add the parent, until we get there"
2020-01-08 00859, 2020
reosarevok
(we'd need to decide what intermediate things to skip, etc, but the general idea should work)
2020-01-08 00811, 2020
BilleeKhoj
sure
2020-01-08 00833, 2020
BilleeKhoj
tbf, I don't actually agree with skipping intermediate thnigs. I mean if we are "going to have all the things" and "feel having everything is better than not having stuff" then it shoudl aply to larger areas, and soem historical areas too?
2020-01-08 00830, 2020
BilleeKhoj
releases, people and recordings can easily have "intermeidate linked area" credit without having a smaller area
2020-01-08 00846, 2020
BilleeKhoj
or it can be old and information fuzzy
2020-01-08 00814, 2020
BilleeKhoj
or area used to be non-intermediate but a higher level but was subsumed later. etc
2020-01-08 00846, 2020
BilleeKhoj
can areas be linked with other areas with a date range?
2020-01-08 00800, 2020
BilleeKhoj
so you could like logically say "blup area was a part of thingycountry from 1200-1500" but then was a part of othercountry 1520-1907" and "become soverenge state in 1908"
2020-01-08 00824, 2020
BilleeKhoj
eh. ignore the last one
2020-01-08 00849, 2020
BilleeKhoj
that'd be the start date of the area i gues
2020-01-08 00856, 2020
BilleeKhoj
but like
2020-01-08 00818, 2020
yvanzo
Currently AREQ already requires a reference such as Wikidata or Geonames.
2020-01-08 00841, 2020
BilleeKhoj
what do we do for a medieval work written in some place in some date in a region that no longer exists, but does have a n equivalent area today
2020-01-08 00800, 2020
BilleeKhoj
but borders are not identical so you sohudl rather use an historical name
2020-01-08 00810, 2020
yvanzo
Historic areas are currently not supported.
2020-01-08 00819, 2020
BilleeKhoj
and that is a huge problem imho
2020-01-08 00834, 2020
BilleeKhoj
not even near historical such. but old ones
2020-01-08 00852, 2020
BilleeKhoj
anyway we do actually have some.. we have east germany afaik
2020-01-08 00803, 2020
BilleeKhoj
and .. chezoslovakia?
2020-01-08 00835, 2020
BilleeKhoj
at ome point we *have* to enable historical areas.. what happens when todays borders are altered?
2020-01-08 00844, 2020
BilleeKhoj
say catalonia becomes a country.. how do we deal with that?
2020-01-08 00858, 2020
BilleeKhoj
make a new entity and igonre that is used ot be aprt of spain until such time
2020-01-08 00800, 2020
BilleeKhoj
?
2020-01-08 00836, 2020
BilleeKhoj
all old links of artists to this area would be erranous if moved to new country "catalonia" whne the person f.ex was born and lived and died in "spain"
2020-01-08 00847, 2020
yvanzo
We should probably replace area fields with area relationships (which have dates).
2020-01-08 00829, 2020
BilleeKhoj
that works if the old area is equivalent to the new one.
2020-01-08 00832, 2020
BilleeKhoj
not always so
2020-01-08 00858, 2020
BilleeKhoj
Norway of pre kalmar-union had a prt of what is now sweden
2020-01-08 00801, 2020
BilleeKhoj
(as an example)
2020-01-08 00841, 2020
BilleeKhoj
w.ex a writer fro mthere. how do yo udo? do yo uwrite "was from norway (daterange)" or "was from sweden daterange"
2020-01-08 00857, 2020
BilleeKhoj
what if they lived during the change?
2020-01-08 00806, 2020
BilleeKhoj
what if they chnged theri own oppinion of it ?
2020-01-08 00815, 2020
BilleeKhoj
what if data is unconclusive
2020-01-08 00810, 2020
yvanzo
taht's live, capturing the complexity of border changes is beyond MB goals IMHO
2020-01-08 00834, 2020
BilleeKhoj
for the "herjedalen" scenarion it's fairly ok to just use norway with he data range (as it was a prt of that then) but for situations where the old area stopped exisitng. or a new area created
2020-01-08 00801, 2020
reosarevok
I just use Estonia for Soviet Estonia people
2020-01-08 00810, 2020
yvanzo
if there is a floss project that handles border changes and historic area data, we should surely use it though.
2020-01-08 00836, 2020
BilleeKhoj
yvanzo: yes and no. it's unfortunately something we're going to have to deal with eventually as the data we colelct gets better and better. music s not too unoften closely connected to "area" bot historical and current(ly changing)
2020-01-08 00841, 2020
reosarevok
Because it's more relevant like that and it's not like they generally chose to be Soviet
2020-01-08 00848, 2020
BilleeKhoj
yep
2020-01-08 00850, 2020
reosarevok
But I can see how it's tricky
2020-01-08 00852, 2020
BilleeKhoj
that makes sence..
2020-01-08 00855, 2020
BilleeKhoj
yes
2020-01-08 00817, 2020
reosarevok
That said, I kind of agree with yvanzo that we should figure out how to deal with music stuff first, and area stuff later :p
2020-01-08 00824, 2020
BilleeKhoj
i mena yea
2020-01-08 00829, 2020
reosarevok
(we still suck at a lot of directly musical bits)
2020-01-08 00835, 2020
reosarevok
bitmap: around btw?
2020-01-08 00836, 2020
BilleeKhoj
(and this is why i think "nuke the unused villages"! :P)
2020-01-08 00849, 2020
reosarevok
But that's effort! :p
2020-01-08 00856, 2020
BilleeKhoj
tsk
2020-01-08 00858, 2020
reosarevok
(and the MBID is probably already in Wikidata, etc)
2020-01-08 00821, 2020
BilleeKhoj
both those would be easy to do with some report regex thingy
2020-01-08 00803, 2020
BilleeKhoj
atleast I'd be very interested to see a list of "areas ith no link other than to one other (parent)area"
2020-01-08 00821, 2020
BilleeKhoj
and order by listed pop
2020-01-08 00835, 2020
reosarevok
yvanzo: do you have some time to check some PRs?
2020-01-08 00842, 2020
yvanzo
yup!
2020-01-08 00844, 2020
reosarevok
BilleeKhoj: the pop thing is harder, but the first bit is easy. One sec
2020-01-08 00853, 2020
BilleeKhoj
and population, not pop music , before you go all dads on me, reosarevok
2020-01-08 00803, 2020
reosarevok
Pop music would be easier!
2020-01-08 00806, 2020
BilleeKhoj
:P :D
2020-01-08 00812, 2020
reosarevok
Since we store that as tags, but not the population :p
2020-01-08 00826, 2020
BilleeKhoj
hm. I actually thought we did :/
2020-01-08 00800, 2020
reosarevok
yvanzo: I really want the genre stuff to get merged. https://github.com/metabrainz/musicbrainz-server/… - do you feel that's problematic? (IMO we can look at how alias stuff will work once we actually implement it)
