I'm to talking about 2-3 images scattered in a 600+ page book
2020-02-05 03617, 2020
Mr_Monkey
I mostly agree, expect that I would put a separate EG per translation
2020-02-05 03626, 2020
CatQuest
*every page* is hugly illustrated.
2020-02-05 03628, 2020
CatQuest
it's liek a picture book with text
2020-02-05 03637, 2020
Mr_Monkey
Right.
2020-02-05 03655, 2020
Mr_Monkey
Maybe I should have said text content, then?
2020-02-05 03656, 2020
CatQuest
I'm starting to disagree with that (if translations are separate so sohuld illustrations)
2020-02-05 03611, 2020
CatQuest
.. for books why does text trump illustrations?
2020-02-05 03618, 2020
CatQuest
some books *are* only illustrations
2020-02-05 03616, 2020
CatQuest
I know oy uaid 1:1 with mb doesn't make sense (and I agree there) but the analogy music/video vrs only music is comparative to text/illustration contra only text
2020-02-05 03623, 2020
CatQuest
makes sense
2020-02-05 03633, 2020
adhawkins
Is here the best place to ask about the postgres 12 upgrade, or on #musicbrainz?
2020-02-05 03643, 2020
CatQuest
adhawkins: its here
2020-02-05 03648, 2020
CatQuest
this is dev
2020-02-05 03601, 2020
adhawkins
Just wondering if it was 'safe' to upgrade now in readiness, or should I wait until the update actually happens?
2020-02-05 03637, 2020
adhawkins
I'm running a local slave.
2020-02-05 03649, 2020
Mr_Monkey
If a Work is only illustrative, that's another story. But an illustrated edition of a Work is for me still the same Work, different Edition.
2020-02-05 03659, 2020
CatQuest
ok, how about this. book as an edition. first one. there are a few translated versions to. later it is released as an illustrated version illustrated by Joe Guy, also receives some translation versions. many years later it is released as both non-illustrated and illustraded by other illustrators, some are translated too
2020-02-05 03659, 2020
CatQuest
then for the idk. 20th edition there is a new version illustrated by Joe Guy again, this time with a) additional illustrations or b) completely NEw illsutrations
2020-02-05 03626, 2020
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2020-02-05 03633, 2020
CatQuest
how do thes joe guy illustratinos relate?
2020-02-05 03655, 2020
CatQuest
how do the translated editions relate?
2020-02-05 03617, 2020
CatQuest
suppsoe that 20 years ago the text uses some wordings that has goen out of style. and updated
2020-02-05 03631, 2020
CatQuest
errors corrected etc
2020-02-05 03635, 2020
Mr_Monkey
These are for me all Editions. "Updated edition of… with illustrations by Joe Guy"
2020-02-05 03657, 2020
Mr_Monkey
All the Editions in one language go in one RG
2020-02-05 03623, 2020
CatQuest
the original dutch translation of the illustrated edition is the same for as the the original translation of the first edition. but 20 years later, the dutch translation of the text edition released 2 years ago is *The same* as the edition translated 20 years ago, but the dutch illustrated edition is NEW trasnaltion..
2020-02-05 03630, 2020
CatQuest
how does that fare?
2020-02-05 03648, 2020
CatQuest
for 100+ years books we're gonig ot run into this sort of thing
2020-02-05 03602, 2020
Mr_Monkey
Hang on, let me re-re-re-read that :D
2020-02-05 03620, 2020
CatQuest
80 years later there is a post-death release of the original original book, with a foreword of the authors daughter and Guy's publisher. they have some illustrations in the forword "illustrating ideas" an talk about stuff. but the book is a carbon text copy of the original non-illustrated version
2020-02-05 03641, 2020
CatQuest
this is then trasnalted and released. etc
2020-02-05 03652, 2020
Mr_Monkey
> " translation of the illustrated edition" To me that's nonsensical. You translate a Work, not an Edition. The fact that the same illustrations appear in both Editions does not make them the same book to me.
2020-02-05 03648, 2020
Mr_Monkey
Right. In that last case => Different content = different book = different EG. It does contain the original work, and might have a relationship 'reproduces original edition' or something to that effect
2020-02-05 03648, 2020
CatQuest
it's th same book to a hild that can not yet read.
2020-02-05 03657, 2020
CatQuest
or if in tow differnt languages i cnnot read
2020-02-05 03607, 2020
Mr_Monkey
Yes, but that's not our target audience :)
2020-02-05 03630, 2020
CatQuest
of course it's our target audience! *Everyone* who enjoys books is our target audience!
2020-02-05 03651, 2020
CatQuest
also see "olny illsutration no text"
2020-02-05 03607, 2020
CatQuest
if it was illustrated again by a differnt person (still no text) thne what?
2020-02-05 03612, 2020
CatQuest
also
2020-02-05 03612, 2020
CatQuest
what
2020-02-05 03612, 2020
CatQuest
about
2020-02-05 03613, 2020
CatQuest
comics
2020-02-05 03627, 2020
Mr_Monkey
Only illustrations is less of an issue, considering there's no concept of translation (apart from the title?)
2020-02-05 03632, 2020
CatQuest
your reasno that "illustrations no makes a different editions" falls down completely there
2020-02-05 03633, 2020
Mr_Monkey
Comics have translations
2020-02-05 03643, 2020
CatQuest
what i a comic?
2020-02-05 03648, 2020
CatQuest
what is a comic?
2020-02-05 03653, 2020
CatQuest
(not beeing fastidious)
2020-02-05 03658, 2020
Mr_Monkey
A combination of illustrations and text content
2020-02-05 03600, 2020
CatQuest
is a comic images with text blurbs?
2020-02-05 03614, 2020
CatQuest
is it stil la comic if text is a blurb nderneat each picture?
2020-02-05 03623, 2020
Mr_Monkey
Yes
2020-02-05 03625, 2020
CatQuest
is it s a comic if there are image on each page?
2020-02-05 03637, 2020
Mr_Monkey
I don't think so.
2020-02-05 03637, 2020
CatQuest
if the text is written intertweend with the image?
2020-02-05 03656, 2020
CatQuest
so how many iamges per page to be a comic?
2020-02-05 03600, 2020
CatQuest
must they all be rectangualr?
2020-02-05 03610, 2020
CatQuest
is some pages with only one page spread ok?
2020-02-05 03612, 2020
CatQuest
how many?
2020-02-05 03655, 2020
CatQuest
is a text-less comic stil la comic?
2020-02-05 03607, 2020
Mr_Monkey
Wiki says yes : "Comics is a medium used to express narratives or other ideas through images, usually combined with text."
2020-02-05 03626, 2020
CatQuest
is a extenivly artwork-painted iamges on each side with some text with an obcius progression of images as a comic style stil la comic?
2020-02-05 03633, 2020
CatQuest
jup.
2020-02-05 03636, 2020
Mr_Monkey
But there is a clear difference between an illustrated edition of a litterary work and a comic
2020-02-05 03643, 2020
CatQuest
really?
2020-02-05 03648, 2020
CatQuest
Sandman
2020-02-05 03607, 2020
Mr_Monkey
You mean the comics?
2020-02-05 03614, 2020
CatQuest
do i?
2020-02-05 03616, 2020
CatQuest
also
2020-02-05 03622, 2020
CatQuest
there are *comic* verions of books
2020-02-05 03638, 2020
CatQuest
ie. Coraline, American Gods. Neverwhere. all ahve "comic editions"
2020-02-05 03642, 2020
Mr_Monkey
yes
2020-02-05 03659, 2020
CatQuest
(I know Neverwhere also(the comic version) also excists as a norwegia nedition)
2020-02-05 03604, 2020
Mr_Monkey
They are separate works though, intended to be so.
2020-02-05 03612, 2020
CatQuest
as does. ofcourse the original no-illustated book
2020-02-05 03620, 2020
CatQuest
sure i have no problem with iffernt works
2020-02-05 03624, 2020
CatQuest
i'm tlaknig aobut edition groups here
2020-02-05 03630, 2020
Mr_Monkey
Right.
2020-02-05 03653, 2020
Mr_Monkey
Well, the Neil Gaiman books are not the same content as the comics, for starters, so different books= different EGs
2020-02-05 03611, 2020
CatQuest
but what about the norwegian Neverwhere comic?
2020-02-05 03621, 2020
CatQuest
and the norwegian neverwhere edition
2020-02-05 03632, 2020
CatQuest
by your comment these are the "same thing"
2020-02-05 03632, 2020
Mr_Monkey
I'm lost :p
2020-02-05 03603, 2020
CatQuest
comic <-> illustrated book are gliding overgangs. not set defined things. yo uhave to understand
2020-02-05 03634, 2020
CatQuest
there are *art books* where there are idk. mak 3 "scuares" on each side. most pages are one whole spread
2020-02-05 03648, 2020
CatQuest
of iamges and text
2020-02-05 03605, 2020
CatQuest
tetragrammaton <-- norwegian work
2020-02-05 03610, 2020
CatQuest
might be transalted ik
2020-02-05 03626, 2020
CatQuest
it's.. a "comic" but it could easily be a "illustrated edition" instead
2020-02-05 03603, 2020
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2020-02-05 03625, 2020
Mr_Monkey
An illustrated edition, for me, is a standalone textual work accompanied by illustrations (in some editions).
2020-02-05 03626, 2020
Mr_Monkey
Whereas comics are instended to be mixed images and text, with no standalone text equivalent.
2020-02-05 03658, 2020
CatQuest
which fails when there are comic editions of previously text-only books
2020-02-05 03623, 2020
CatQuest
the "comic" book of coraline is very much an "illustrated book" but it's a comic becasue it omits soem text and isntead shows them
2020-02-05 03640, 2020
Mr_Monkey
Well, no. The content of the Neverwhere Work is not the same as the content of the Neverwhere comics
2020-02-05 03601, 2020
Mr_Monkey
Ah, well you have it there: "it omits some text"
2020-02-05 03613, 2020
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2020-02-05 03620, 2020
Mr_Monkey
There's also a question of intention in there that you overlook
2020-02-05 03600, 2020
Mr_Monkey
A comic interpretation of a book, and the same book with illustrations are not equivalent
2020-02-05 03610, 2020
Mr_Monkey
I agree with that.
2020-02-05 03600, 2020
CatQuest
my point is that. despite the caveheat about "omitting some text" it's not always easy to see wich is wich
2020-02-05 03654, 2020
Mr_Monkey
The will be exceptions and hard cases, but I think the intent is clear in a great majority of cases.
2020-02-05 03601, 2020
CatQuest
and I overhodet do not agree that a norwegian translation of Alice in Wodnerland as illustrated by Tove Jansson has as much in common as a on-trasnalated one but LESS to the egnlsig original illsutrated by Tove Jansson
2020-02-05 03613, 2020
CatQuest
the text is als oput on the same pages. the iamges are the sme places
2020-02-05 03638, 2020
CatQuest
sorry as a non-illustrated translated on
2020-02-05 03623, 2020
Mr_Monkey
Right, but I who do not read .no can't possibly consider them remotely the same book, considering I can read one and not the other. Whereas two english versions containing the same text (one with illustrations), now that I know are the same book
2020-02-05 03647, 2020
CatQuest
.. sight i'm not saying that !
2020-02-05 03622, 2020
CatQuest
the point is that evne if you cant read one (or EITHER) if yo usat with both in your hands and paged trough thme you'd automatically realise they where the sme "ting" in differnt languages
2020-02-05 03636, 2020
Mr_Monkey
I see your point
2020-02-05 03621, 2020
CatQuest
I'm *not* saying that should idk. trump the same language-same EG thing completely. jsut that illustrations matter
2020-02-05 03606, 2020
CatQuest
and i'm not saying that an edition with illustratinos and another edition with the same illustrations but put slightly differently (schoolbok editinos coem to mind) are differnt EG
2020-02-05 03609, 2020
CatQuest
heavens no
2020-02-05 03631, 2020
Mr_Monkey
So you think there's a relationship missing between two Editions, right?
2020-02-05 03608, 2020
CatQuest
just that there *is* a diff between an editino with *no* images whatsoever and an edition where every single page (practically) has gorgeous page until the margins a huge size/differnt format to accomodate said images is somewhat differnt "things"
compare that with the first page of the first hp book
2020-02-05 03623, 2020
CatQuest
the norwegian edition (or the dutch or the japanese etc etc) transaltinos look similar to that. but the non-image ones fro m10 years ago look not lie kthat
2020-02-05 03635, 2020
CatQuest
Mr_Monkey: i know i love it
2020-02-05 03658, 2020
CatQuest
I have some old hp editions (there was a yearly dugnad/garagethorw-out thing here)
2020-02-05 03608, 2020
CatQuest
and there was 3 hp books. giant things. english
2020-02-05 03612, 2020
CatQuest
I got those
2020-02-05 03619, 2020
Mr_Monkey
So you would want an EG for example for "Harry Potter illustrated by Such NSuch"
2020-02-05 03628, 2020
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2020-02-05 03641, 2020
CatQuest
was the 3 last books. i do not consither the upcombing 3 last books in this illustrated series the same
2020-02-05 03643, 2020
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2020-02-05 03647, 2020
CatQuest
i would kinda
2020-02-05 03601, 2020
Mr_Monkey
I see your point.
2020-02-05 03613, 2020
CatQuest
and. to horrify you. I'd put the norwegian translated one int oit too (but they would ahve separate wrks!)
2020-02-05 03626, 2020
Mr_Monkey
And would you put that same illustrated book bu in another language under the same EG?
2020-02-05 03630, 2020
Mr_Monkey
There :)
2020-02-05 03633, 2020
CatQuest
or int oits own separate eg
2020-02-05 03649, 2020
Mr_Monkey
I don't think it's horrifying.
2020-02-05 03600, 2020
CatQuest
hah so you inally see what I meant! :D
2020-02-05 03607, 2020
CatQuest
(evne if yo udidn't agree)
2020-02-05 03632, 2020
Mr_Monkey
I understood before, but I'm not sure about what's the most useful way to flatten that out into guidelines :)
