#bookbrainz

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      • ZaphodBeeblebrox is now known as CatQuest
      • CatQuest is now known as dusjekatt
      • void09
        flawed 30 million items db, or "perfect" 50k items db. hmm :)
      • No, I am not complaining about anything. Just trying to figure out what's the plan here
      • dusjekatt is now known as CatQuest
      • CatQuest
        honestly bb is young? we've only really had the ability for easy addition for a few years now. since monkey took over as main bb dev. with help from several gsocers and such.
      • this is what, the 4th, 5th? year we're in gsoc?
      • we didt have much of a community until bookogs caved. and that was what, 2 years? considering all this, that bb isn't even a finished database, it's stil in beta very much
      • think 50k is pretty good
      • musicbrainz is comming up on 20 years now. it has many many more items. yo ucan't compare it with a database that is barely 5 years old as it is.
      • furthermore we are improving every day, the database entry and database model will be become even better. and people will come, I'm sure
      • so I suggest instead of com^^^"trying to figure out" why there are so few items?
      • add some, add everything. hlep improve BB
      • also, quality over quantity
      • this is why mb is today the go-to database for music metadata
      • it wasn't so whne it was new. not so even 10 yearsago
      • trickle addition is better than mass mport of data
      • because we're in this for th long haul. yes
      • so at first, there is little. not much. very lacking
      • and thne some people will come, add theri shit
      • so more peopel will come say "this is shit data I will improve it!" and more peopel will come
      • tracktion develops
      • more and more
      • and suddenly those "30 million flawed items" in that db is peanuts
      • will it take time?
      • yes
      • is that a bad thing?
      • no.
      • void09
        Yes, makes perfect sense what you say. Although I want to know how openlib is flawed and how BB is better in that regard.
      • monkey
        Hi void09, sorry for the delay! As has been mentioned by other people, do keep in mind BookBrainz is in its infancy; as such it will suffer from comparisons with other more established projects (including some that have since closed shop).
      • OpenLibrary is not flawed, nor do I think we are really competing in the space. BookBrainz benefits from the infrastructure, experience, knowledge and community of MusicBrainz, while the OpenLibrary benefits from the same resources at the Internet Archive.
      • Our goals are mostly aligned, with these main differences: OpenLibrary is geared towards digitized content and lending of digital books, while BookBrainz focuses on metadata only and the stability, perennity and curation of the identifiers.
      • void09
        hi monkey
      • monkey
        In my opinion, having similar projects with mostly aligned goals is beneficial for the longevity of both projects.
      • void09
        digitized/lending content is an addition to metadata. could have the same thing on bb if you just added some extra fields in the database I guess
      • monkey
        Soon we will open collaboration channels between OL and BB with the aim to improve the quality of data on both sides, although exactly how remains to be seens (and programmed :) )
      • void09
        Oh that's good
      • CatQuest
        ah that open liberary, i confused it with a dfferent project, sos
      • monkey
        void09: We can't legally do that. That's why MusicBrainz hosts all its cover art (similar copyright issues) with the Internet Archive with the joint project Cover Art Archive https://coverartarchive.org/
      • void09
        I arrived here looking for a self hosted platform to aid in the collaboration of a group towards digitizing some paper media collections (old books, magazines and such)
      • Of course you can't (well you can for public domain/opensource content)
      • I was just saying works metadata is independent of actual content
      • monkey
        Nice! Well, we certainly can't help with the digitization aspect, but I'm keen on improving how BookBrainz stores magazines and other such publications. Currently it's not very well adapted IMO
      • CatQuest
        +1 o that
      • void09
        Yes, neither is openlibrary. i wanted to have something ready to go, not having to hire someone to do mods, for a limited scope project
      • monkey
        I see. I can't think of any other open source project that would be more adapted to magazines
      • void09
        By the way, are hashes of content legal to store/distribute ? Or does that depend on the country you're in, or too unpredictable to risk ?
      • monkey
        That's a very good question; the general answer for the MetaBrainz foundation is always "when in doubt, don't"
      • The Internet Archive is legally set up as a library so there's a lot of differences in what they're allowed to do, but MetaBrainz on the whole steers away from any possible copyright issues.
      • CatQuest
        ah it was worldcat I misstook it for, sorry :(
      • monkey
        We've had the same questions recently regarding fine-grained analyses of audio data: now that AIs are getting good enough, one could reconstitute a song from fine-grained spectrum analyses, and so that is a barrier for us.
      • void09
        That book lending thing of internet archive is pretty cool. Even DRM-ed, it's actually possible to circumvent it. I wonder what the point is in keeping 80's magazines copyrighted. They can't make any more money off them
      • monkey
        The gods of copyright are irrational…
      • Yeah, beats me.
      • I think they probably see everything in terms of "demand". If you want them catalogued for posterity, that counts as "demand", and so the remote possibility of money.
      • "Who knows what else people can do with 80's magazines if we let go of the copyright! We might be missing on some sweet cash !"
      • void09
        It's pretty funny how lending of digital content works, like simulating lending of a physical copy. First I thought it was a joke
      • monkey
        Me too :D But that's the deal the IA had to strike
      • void09
        They seem to be doing it right, whatever they're doing. They're huge, they are sustainable, and they still exist :D
      • monkey
        And even then, they are under legal battle with publishers and authors associations
      • void09
        Oh I remember they pulled some unnecessary stunt during covid, to allow unlimited lending. Is that what you are talking about ?
      • monkey
        Yep. We aim for the same goals; we'll be there in 20 years, and by then we'll also be huge :)
      • This ^
      • CatQuest
        funny how it's always the publishers, and almost never the authors ;)
      • monkey
        "Giant publishing conglomerates unhappy about missingpotential profit$"
      • CatQuest
        ikr
      • same with labels vs artists
      • monkey
        Not even, "the publishers", it's The Publishers: Hachette, HarperCollins, John Wiley & Sons, and Penguin Random House
      • CatQuest
        yea? like emi, universal, wb, universal, uhm disney
      • void09
        pff, fighting in court instead of adding entries to BB :\
      • CatQuest
        exactly
      • monkey
        Hah
      • void09
        I would actually do that, add entries to BB, if I thought the data model was absolutely perfect and could capture everything
      • monkey
        Well, alternatively, we're definitely open for discussion on how to improve the data model and guidelines for specific publication types
      • But of course that's not quite instant, if you're looking for a solution that is ready right now
      • void09
      • is this considered ?
      • monkey
        Yes, we did consider FRBR, but it's a serious departure from the existing model
      • That being said, perhaps some of the concepts could find their way into the BB model
      • For the most part, in BookBrainz the idea of an "item" doesn't make much sense (it makes a lot of sense for libraries that have specific physical or digital items to lend)
      • The other concepts should map fairly well to the BookBrainz schema if I'm not mistaken
      • (It's been a while since I looked at FRBR in details)
      • void09
        Item as in a specific instance of a published edition (eg. 1 piece unique physical book) ?
      • vs another such piece that might have a dick drawn on the first page :d
      • monkey
        Yes, exactly.
      • void09
        Yes that is completely unnecessary, as long as BB can be used as a parent database and items implemented as a extra db layer
      • monkey
        Well, all in all that is the goal: to provide curated metadata with stable identifiers as a base for other projects
      • Oh, and all of that open source, of course :p Otherwise, ISBNs, VIAF ids, etc. would do the trick I suppose.