I still feel like the a-tisket "release countries" stuff is a bad kind of spam and I feel bad whenever I submit it. The annotations, too.
2021-05-29 14903, 2021
agatzk
derwin I prefer to only add an annotation when there are excluded countries in an XW release. I try to avoid adding 50+ countries to the release events.
2021-05-29 14940, 2021
agatzk
what happens when a new country is added to the list? will we find each release and add an additional country?
2021-05-29 14931, 2021
derwin
agatzk: yeah, exactly.
2021-05-29 14938, 2021
derwin
agatzk: I just don't want to delete 200 release events.
2021-05-29 14951, 2021
derwin
ultimately my laziness wins out over my thinking it's ugly and stupid.
2021-05-29 14925, 2021
agatzk
I hear you on that. I've cleaned out a few (notably the ones that are exluced in Curaçao) and replaced it with XW, but I know some editors prefer to list each country specifically for accuracy.
2021-05-29 14905, 2021
derwin
I just think it's extra stupid, because 99.9999% also have a global digital release on beatport etc.
2021-05-29 14927, 2021
derwin
what is the premise of thinking that there's 200 digitial releases when they're all sent to distrokid on the same day
2021-05-29 14932, 2021
derwin
because they're all actually the same release
2021-05-29 14911, 2021
derwin
to me, a "release" is when the label says "we're releasing this thing" not when the 30 different systems their distributor ships it to post them.
2021-05-29 14937, 2021
derwin
and definitely not when the services downstream of their distributor expands into a new country
2021-05-29 14956, 2021
derwin
it's not a "release event" for every release on their service when spotify adds a new country.
2021-05-29 14927, 2021
agatzk
I hear you. We must be careful to distinguish between one release in different countries and different releases.
2021-05-29 14900, 2021
derwin
with physical releases, they were often actually different releases, in terms of the physical object, release date, and so on
2021-05-29 14930, 2021
agatzk
But there is a practice on creating ~200 release events to be 100% accurate in terms of countries. XW implies every country, so one exclusion makes it incorrect.
2021-05-29 14932, 2021
derwin
anyway, I should probably stop whining about it here and post to the forums and seek some sort of consensus there. I don't like what a single tool has decided, which spams the database with very low value information.
2021-05-29 14959, 2021
derwin
yes, but a person in curacao can just buy that release from beatport or junodownload.
2021-05-29 14905, 2021
derwin
so what does it mean that it's not "released" there
2021-05-29 14938, 2021
derwin
I probably am also technically making an error when I add the beatport url to the deezer/spotify/itunes release. but it's the same release.
2021-05-29 14943, 2021
agatzk
there are only so many ways to do it, but I get you. the problem perhaps comes when trying to reconcile differences between those stores
2021-05-29 14924, 2021
derwin
if there's a different tracklist, that seems significant to me. if there isn't the only difference in terms of release dates is literally how long their systems take to process what distrokid sent them, in 99.9% of cases.
2021-05-29 14929, 2021
agatzk
right, like you said. what's the difference? You can read about UPC / digital releases in community forum, but in the end it's up to all of us
2021-05-29 14936, 2021
derwin
who does this information have value to? when?
2021-05-29 14958, 2021
derwin
I know, I know, philosophically, if it exists, it should be uniquely captured
2021-05-29 14912, 2021
derwin
but what we'll end up with is a release per digital store, because each has a slightly different "release event"
2021-05-29 14920, 2021
agatzk
fwiw, when I know stores have uploaded it at a different date, I've sometimes considered it the same release
2021-05-29 14952, 2021
derwin
every release becomes [n] releases where [n] is the number of streaming services and digital stores
2021-05-29 14914, 2021
derwin
and the only difference is something no human did with intent
2021-05-29 14943, 2021
derwin
can a release have multiple release dates in the same country? could I spam the database endlessly by releasing and un-releasing a release on bandcamp every day?
2021-05-29 14947, 2021
derwin
I feel like there's something essential about "release" as an event that we're not quite characterizing, which was obvious when it was physical media.
2021-05-29 14924, 2021
agatzk
yeah. I could argue similarly to extend this to physical releases like CDs. I see releases that have slightly different IFPI codes, are these separate releases? we'll likely end up with many extremely similar, but with different IFPI codes. Does Discogs way of listing them all in variation work any better? I don't really think so
2021-05-29 14943, 2021
derwin
there's also the issue of the same release but different pressing plants producing the vinyl
2021-05-29 14948, 2021
agatzk
In the end we have to focus on the technology and nature of our goal, which is to serve as a source of information to facilitate meaningful conversation about the music. I'm still fairly new to the community, but it seems we're on the right path
2021-05-29 14954, 2021
derwin
so the runout grooves are different but all the art and everything is the same
2021-05-29 14923, 2021
derwin
(and sometimes, presumably, the runout grooves aren't even different, but they were pressed at different plants)
It seems the general consensus is that if there is a difference that is distinguishable, that's a separate release. folks have however argued that we should keep things together within reason
2021-05-29 14901, 2021
derwin
yeah, I just wonder about the premise of "distinguishable"
2021-05-29 14911, 2021
derwin
people say the pressing plants have a different sound or whatever
2021-05-29 14913, 2021
agatzk
exactly. I don't know if it gets more specific that Mould SID
2021-05-29 14922, 2021
agatzk
than*
2021-05-29 14950, 2021
agatzk
I regularly encounter CDs that are slightly different than all MB and Discogs releases due to mastering or mould SIDs
2021-05-29 14904, 2021
derwin
could one take two different pressing plant releases of a thing, establish each as a reference, and then blind test and determine them via technology?
2021-05-29 14935, 2021
derwin
yeah I don't know about that physical technology, but I assume it's basically "runout grooves" that indicate the "master disc"
2021-05-29 14951, 2021
agatzk
ha! I don't think the interpretation of listening will ever serve as an objective source!
2021-05-29 14912, 2021
derwin
and it's the same thing we're talking about, except in that case it's literally exactly the same 1s and 0s except for the IDs
2021-05-29 14943, 2021
derwin
well sure, I was talking about non-subjective measures, where we play back and sample on the same rig, but your digital example eliminates most of the randomness of the vinyl example, heh.
2021-05-29 14928, 2021
agatzk
I, personally, tend to think that different matrix/runouts would be different releases. this is kind of leaning on the assumption that all buyers of physical audio media would submit to MB their specific information (oh a perfect world)
2021-05-29 14913, 2021
agatzk
but right, the sound is the same, right or left. many of these releases are the same sounds with different metadata
2021-05-29 14922, 2021
derwin
they don't even do that on discogs, which significantly exists to enable them to sell stuff :)
2021-05-29 14909, 2021
derwin
and active archival projects like archive.org don't seem to capture all info, for example their 78s project I don't think catalogs runout groove information...
2021-05-29 14916, 2021
derwin
(do shellacs have runout groove information?)
2021-05-29 14940, 2021
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finalsummer
junodownload and beatport has region exclusion as well
2021-05-29 14955, 2021
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2021-05-29 14927, 2021
derwin
so if I go to beatport from <random country> I will not be allowed to purchase there?
2021-05-29 14919, 2021
finalsummer
yes
2021-05-29 14937, 2021
finalsummer
tell me what country you're in and i'll find you an example
2021-05-29 14936, 2021
derwin
oh, I know that there are specific releases which are region restricted
2021-05-29 14901, 2021
derwin
I'm asking the opposite question, about the status of a generic release in a random country no one cares about restricting explicitly
2021-05-29 14906, 2021
derwin
say I'm in Cabo Verde or Burkina Faso, is Beatport available to me or not?
right, US example is explicitly not what I'm assuming
2021-05-29 14938, 2021
derwin
that is "someone has explicitly made it unavailable in the US"
2021-05-29 14944, 2021
derwin
opt-in, vs. opt-out.
2021-05-29 14946, 2021
finalsummer
I'm not sure. they do implement region locking and I assume they would follow what countries the label tell them they can sell it in
2021-05-29 14947, 2021
derwin
I, perhaps naively, think it's likely that there's a catch-all "global" store which you are put in by default. Maybe that's a naive assumption.
2021-05-29 14932, 2021
finalsummer
there isn't. i've seen releases i've been locked out of in sweden which has half of the population of burkina faso, so even a more minor example than the one you gave
" Electronic music’s digital mecca may be available in more than 220 countries, but Beatport today (Jan. 28) announced the launch of a completely localized version of its music service in the Netherlands. "
2021-05-29 14957, 2021
derwin
" There are 195 countries in the world today. "
2021-05-29 14936, 2021
derwin
so, right, my point is that someone might care about the (very wealthy) [x] million people who live in sweden, which is part of the EU and subject to its copyright treaties
2021-05-29 14953, 2021
derwin
they might very well not care about the [2x] people who live in burkina faso
2021-05-29 14927, 2021
derwin
pretty much anywhere a VPN might proxy to is a country large enough for a record company to theoretically bother to care about its rights there
2021-05-29 14953, 2021
derwin
I am broadly skeptical that a country that says it operates in "220 countries" blocks out everyone else.
2021-05-29 14912, 2021
finalsummer
all of those countries have associated ip ranges so blocking them is easy
2021-05-29 14953, 2021
derwin
right, but their press release/billboard says they operate in 220, which is very close to the highest number I can find for countries in the world
2021-05-29 14913, 2021
derwin
the idea that it's opt-in to all of those countries, instead of opt-out of ones you want to restrict, seems unlikely.
2021-05-29 14937, 2021
derwin
iow, the default is "sell everywhere"
2021-05-29 14950, 2021
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derwin
" Beatport is the world’s leading online provider of music, tools and resources customized for the unique needs and demands of DJs. With almost 40 million unique users globally and available in more than 230 countries "
2021-05-29 14958, 2021
derwin
hah! 230!
2021-05-29 14918, 2021
derwin
" United Nations list (193 recognised countries) and the FIFA football list (211 members) "
2021-05-29 14901, 2021
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2021-05-29 14913, 2021
CatQuest
ftr i don't midn the release events being what they are. but i loathe those annotations. i don't see the point of "repriducing the info of the release events" anyway?
2021-05-29 14959, 2021
CatQuest
the annotations could instead be the countries that are excluded. and yes. if a release is actually available in a different country set in beatport than eg. itunes or whatever. then the biggest group one cancells out the smallest?
2021-05-29 14914, 2021
CatQuest
I mean. personally I find it interesting that "some country" isn't included. (and I thin kit's important to highlight that unfarness (which is almost always some 3rd country they don't care about))
2021-05-29 14914, 2021
CatQuest
but i do think derwin has a point when it's not maliciously intended but jsut "nobody operates in that country just yet
2021-05-29 14938, 2021
CatQuest
again, I think that if someone wants to go and actually add every country *but* that one or then fine. do that. but I also thin kit's *fine* to add something as *worldwide* .PROVIDED you actually put in the _excluded_ countries in the annotation
2021-05-29 14944, 2021
finalsummer
the annotation includes a date which is useful
2021-05-29 14938, 2021
CatQuest
and?
2021-05-29 14953, 2021
CatQuest
dates can als obe put in releaseevents
2021-05-29 14904, 2021
CatQuest
anyway i have no issue with some lines about stuff.
2021-05-29 14933, 2021
CatQuest
it's a the hugeass list of countries with country-codes/flags
2021-05-29 14948, 2021
CatQuest
it's the hugeass list of countries with country-codes/flags that I have an issue with
2021-05-29 14913, 2021
CatQuest
i can't even accuratly get the needed information out if it. it's jsut one big blub of names
2021-05-29 14925, 2021
finalsummer
~date of when the countries were retrieved~
2021-05-29 14932, 2021
CatQuest
why are the falg emoji things even included?
2021-05-29 14955, 2021
CatQuest
if it where jsut an alfabetical list of countries *myabe
2021-05-29 14917, 2021
CatQuest
*still* i thin khaving the list with just 2these are excluded at [date] time" : would be more usefull
2021-05-29 14947, 2021
finalsummer
the flags make it insanely easy to parse
2021-05-29 14952, 2021
CatQuest
what
2021-05-29 14953, 2021
CatQuest
no
2021-05-29 14901, 2021
CatQuest
it's ugly af
2021-05-29 14901, 2021
finalsummer
all you have to do is regex select all the emoji ranges
2021-05-29 14911, 2021
CatQuest
uhm. i'm a human i don't od regex
2021-05-29 14946, 2021
CatQuest
it's ugly af, i can't parse (heh) reading that big blok of blub
2021-05-29 14906, 2021
CatQuest
how is having to use a computer to regex a list supposed to be usefull?
2021-05-29 14948, 2021
CatQuest
for annotations, that's supposed to be information for human to read. for computers, there's the database *itself!*
2021-05-29 14959, 2021
CatQuest
and every date event is added there too
2021-05-29 14905, 2021
CatQuest
*release event*
2021-05-29 14916, 2021
CatQuest
it's duplicated in the annotation!
2021-05-29 14928, 2021
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2021-05-29 14909, 2021
finalsummer
i wouldnt mind if it was just the country unicode flags or iso 3166-1 2 letter codes but this information is clearly useful
2021-05-29 14928, 2021
CatQuest
don't get me wrong. i get why this is useful for osme. but i *stilll* maintain that it coudl be done *better*
