ev: yeah, that's one of the weird things about the annotation, it's like "here's where it was avaialable.. when we created this annotation"
2021-05-31 15129, 2021
ev
tigerman325: I suspect part of the reason that phonographic copyright is put in the annotation is that streaming services frequently mix release label and copyright holder up (if the streaming services treat them differently at all).
2021-05-31 15101, 2021
ev
derwin: as far as I can tell there is no difference between what is in the annotation and what is in the list
2021-05-31 15121, 2021
ev
apart from it also adding things that should be put as a relationship, like the phonographic copyright
2021-05-31 15147, 2021
derwin
? there's also the release date info on the country release dates?
2021-05-31 15157, 2021
derwin
maybe I'm missing what you're comparing, I'm kinda out of it lol
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Misty_Pond
is there a format option for CD-ROM?
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JesseW
Misty_Pond: maybe Data CD?
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daniels35
hi, I'm trying to add a CD release with 2 discs. I've already added the first: https://musicbrainz.org/release/52c9490f-aecf-44b… but struggle to add the 2nd disc. I'm using "Sound Juicer" on ubuntu which allows to "edit album" and should upload the Disc ID. Can someone provide resources where I can find how to add the 2nd disc?
2021-05-31 15140, 2021
daniels35
I can offer a chat with screen share, e.g. via some jitsi instance
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derwin
daniels35: hi, you're in the right place
2021-05-31 15104, 2021
derwin
daniels35: I unfortunately do not know the answer to your question, and it's the time of day where people are most likely to be asleep
2021-05-31 15110, 2021
derwin
but if you stick around, someone should be able to help
2021-05-31 15117, 2021
daniels35
Thanks :) I can wait
2021-05-31 15103, 2021
derwin
" MusicBrainz Picard 1.4.2 · "the best downloader for mod files!". "
2021-05-31 15104, 2021
derwin
... wut
2021-05-31 15147, 2021
outsidecontext
derwin: lol, where have you found this gem?
2021-05-31 15129, 2021
derwin
but weirdly, the page in question doesn't seem to have that said
2021-05-31 15119, 2021
outsidecontext
weird indeed. and Picard not even can read mod files :D
2021-05-31 15155, 2021
CatQuest
ev, derwin, tigerman325, flamingspinach : I *really* like the idea that surfaced about "per service" release event tbh. I think in all ways that would be the most *accurate* as well as actulaly be useful for people's uses (ie "when was this available at X site") as well as limiting the amount of countries, we could instead have a per service release event, then each service could have a centralised list of countries where it's available (
2021-05-31 15155, 2021
CatQuest
linked in our db!)
2021-05-31 15155, 2021
CatQuest
it woudl mena creating "countries" of services. but i na way evne that kidna makes sense
2021-05-31 15154, 2021
flamingspinach
I guess that sounds useful, but why are you pinging me about it in particular?
2021-05-31 15156, 2021
CatQuest
it would mean making "areas" of services
2021-05-31 15109, 2021
CatQuest
flamingspinach: I'm pinging everyone who ahs talked about this :)
2021-05-31 15127, 2021
flamingspinach
where did I talk about that? must have been many years ago lol
2021-05-31 15136, 2021
CatQuest
...
2021-05-31 15143, 2021
CatQuest
wait i'm confusing yo uwith osmeoen am i not
2021-05-31 15147, 2021
CatQuest
sorry sorry!
2021-05-31 15156, 2021
CatQuest
so sorry
2021-05-31 15159, 2021
flamingspinach
np haha
2021-05-31 15105, 2021
CatQuest
it was finalsummer not flamingspinach
2021-05-31 15127, 2021
CatQuest
headdesk
2021-05-31 15136, 2021
CatQuest
it was th f something s something that tripped me up :P
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derwin
CatQuest: yeah, I've been wondering about it, I am little less comfortable with companies-as-countries, but something about per service release dates does really click for me
2021-05-31 15119, 2021
CatQuest
it'll even be quite scaleable and neatly fit into liek. *reality*
2021-05-31 15134, 2021
CatQuest
reosarevok: your look on this?
2021-05-31 15119, 2021
CatQuest
yea company as country is kinda weird. but saying that "spotify is an "area" is kind of... accurate?
2021-05-31 15137, 2021
CatQuest
we could give area tyes for this
2021-05-31 15139, 2021
CatQuest
types*
2021-05-31 15154, 2021
CatQuest
like. [worldwide] kinda means "the internet"
2021-05-31 15120, 2021
CatQuest
it's using areas as a hack
2021-05-31 15137, 2021
CatQuest
the other alternative is to create anther entity which *can be used liek countries in releases*
2021-05-31 15157, 2021
CatQuest
and that's definitely a scema change or my name isn't cat
2021-05-31 15150, 2021
CatQuest
the only problem is that if ex spotify was added as an "area" then peopel would say that os and so person was *from spotefy*
2021-05-31 15126, 2021
CatQuest
so it's probably a schema change anyway to put in code to allow exclusion from the rel-country list :/
2021-05-31 15137, 2021
elomatreb[m]
Keeping a list of countries up to date and matching peoples expectations is already hard enough, managing a list of online stores (unless you want to arbitrarily limit it to Spotify/Deezer/Apple) would be pretty annoying
2021-05-31 15100, 2021
derwin
so, that's part of what I wonder about. is it that they're stores, or that they're streaming services. you can buy stuff on tidal and bandcamp and itunes, but not spotify/deezer...
2021-05-31 15147, 2021
elomatreb[m]
arguably the "available for streaming" URLs already fill this purpose fwiw, it this were supplemented with a style guideline like "set XW for digital releases that are not intentionally country-restricted (like Japan-only releases)" it would be pretty good I think
2021-05-31 15148, 2021
CatQuest
honestly how many stores are there and how many countries are there?
2021-05-31 15102, 2021
CatQuest
not a bad idea either
2021-05-31 15103, 2021
elomatreb[m]
Online stores definitely change more often than countries do
2021-05-31 15148, 2021
elomatreb[m]
With the relatively small set we have in the URL database it already starts having problems, things like the apple music logo being outdated for long time
2021-05-31 15111, 2021
elomatreb[m]
derwin: I would say that distinction is rather arbitrary, as you can stream on Bandcamp too but you can also download files from e.g. Deezer (which is a fairly popular thing to do actually)
2021-05-31 15150, 2021
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tigerman325
I still see nothing wrong with just leaving it like it is. The country list is collapsible. So there's over 200 countries on a list. You see 3, unless you click to see more. Releases aren't based on stores.
although since it's jazz, are they actually covers as such in the way that pop songs are covers? maybe someone else knows more about jazz than me
2021-05-31 15117, 2021
aidalgol
Someone else had gone through other jazz releases I've added and added "cover" relationships.
2021-05-31 15128, 2021
aidalgol
But they probably also knew more about jazz than us. :P
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Freso
CatQuest: With your approach, how would you note that something was released on Spotify but not made available, through Spotify, in, say, Norway?
2021-05-31 15157, 2021
derwin
what does "in norway" mean? if you have an american spotify account and are in norway, it is available in norway.
2021-05-31 15122, 2021
derwin
because Spotify doesn't geo-lock via IP, it region-locks by country-of-account
2021-05-31 15118, 2021
derwin
I also think that beatport confounds this idea a lot. they don't publish countries of availability through their API, AFAICT. so literally the only way you know if it's not available in a geo-ip block is if you try to buy and it denies you.
ie, be available in x, y z countries but exclude y country for some reason anyway?
2021-05-31 15124, 2021
reosarevok
Yes, that's why people add the stupidly long lists
2021-05-31 15133, 2021
CatQuest
rather than be available in xyz country and thne *later* be available in v country as well
2021-05-31 15144, 2021
reosarevok
Well, not so much Spotify does it but the content owners, but
2021-05-31 15150, 2021
CatQuest
honestly the release events don't bother me, it's the annotations i don't understand
2021-05-31 15106, 2021
CatQuest
isn't it duplication of data?
2021-05-31 15149, 2021
ev
it seems to be implying to my mind a deficiency in relationships, because the release relationships don't actually imply current availability
2021-05-31 15118, 2021
ev
the conflict between what the style says and what these lists actually tend to mean (they mean current availability) is the problematic part to my mind
2021-05-31 15157, 2021
CatQuest
especially since "current availablilty" is a n ver changing thing
ie obivously the label that says "do not use for releases" shouldn't be used for releases, but the streaming services always still state the phonographic copyright holder as the nominal label
2021-05-31 15135, 2021
reosarevok
"Current availability" is not generally a thing we have historically cared about
2021-05-31 15152, 2021
CatQuest
eh I mean the long list of countries with flag unicodes (which only show up as bold large capital letters for user without colour emoji fonts (or old fonts))
2021-05-31 15114, 2021
reosarevok
If something stops being available the appropriate streaming rel can be set as ended, but I guess that only works if it stops being available altogether
2021-05-31 15131, 2021
ev
reosarevok: OK, that's as good an argument against any about using those lists then. I would just remove those lists based solely on that, and I doubt anyone could reasonably vote me down, if it was originally added based on just the atisket output.
2021-05-31 15132, 2021
reosarevok
If they take it off in one country only, then probably no good way to indicate it rn
2021-05-31 15154, 2021
reosarevok
Whether we should care is an open question (I certainly do not)
2021-05-31 15108, 2021
reosarevok
(since it seems pretty rare)
2021-05-31 15120, 2021
ev
to my mind, the issue of whether to create a new relationship [for the atisket output for these streaming services] basically hinges on whether we should be expressing digital availability of releases in the database at all. it is a nebulous and fluid thing, and if we do I would say a bot should set this, not humans.
2021-05-31 15126, 2021
ev
sorry, expressing 'current' availability
2021-05-31 15122, 2021
Freso
I don’t think the atisket annotation links are meant to express current availability either. They express availability at one, fixed, point in time (namely the time the release/annotation was added).
2021-05-31 15114, 2021
Freso
*lists
2021-05-31 15130, 2021
CatQuest
basically hinges on whether we should be expressing digital availability of releases in the database at all. it is a nebulous and fluid thing, and if we do I would say a bot should set this, not humans.
2021-05-31 15130, 2021
CatQuest
^^^^ this
2021-05-31 15132, 2021
Freso
Anyway. Going to soak up some nuclear fusion radiation before final astronomy class.
2021-05-31 15145, 2021
CatQuest
:x
2021-05-31 15150, 2021
CatQuest
Freso: explain
2021-05-31 15110, 2021
ev
Freso: as far as I am concerned this is equivalent to current availability .it's current availability at one point in time, *possibly* at release, but atisket output on its own is not enough to verify this
2021-05-31 15111, 2021
CatQuest
. sunlight?
2021-05-31 15150, 2021
ev
the point is that it is likely not the availibility at release, which is what the relationship it reuses actually implies
2021-05-31 15151, 2021
ev
in the long forum post, tigerman325 suggested several other sites that can be used to verify this, but most of the edits don't use these
2021-05-31 15112, 2021
ev
they are solely put through using atisket, with no other sources cited
2021-05-31 15152, 2021
ev
obviously the edits put through close to release are likely going to be correct, but there are numerous edits put through years later
2021-05-31 15143, 2021
CatQuest
i think tigerman325 works very dilligently doing it too. ther my be other using this tool which do not do o
2021-05-31 15145, 2021
CatQuest
so*
2021-05-31 15157, 2021
CatQuest
or even know that to do so
2021-05-31 15113, 2021
CatQuest
the tool is useful, but it might be used wrongly by peopel too
2021-05-31 15135, 2021
ev
the worst offending release I know of certainly wasn't - two releases were added to its release group with a conflict between the dates, there was no attempt to verify these even though it was obviously a parsing error on the part of one of the streaming sites (2012-04-09 vs 2012-09-04) and this was put through in 2020
2021-05-31 15114, 2021
ev
this one was also XW according to atisket (all countries satisfied) but it still had the list put through for both
2021-05-31 15138, 2021
CatQuest
i susspec that 2edit history" links being super unubiquitous doesn't help!
2021-05-31 15105, 2021
ev
so, it seems to me that either we say 'verify that this was the availability on release' (avoid adding a new relationship) or we think of a way to express digital availibility differently and get atisket to use that.
2021-05-31 15144, 2021
CatQuest
i like that last idea the best
2021-05-31 15146, 2021
ev
i think the problem is that we need to make it easier for people to add these relationships because they exist, and the current solution isn't ideal
2021-05-31 15129, 2021
ev
rather than blame people for adding the wrong relationships which isn't really fair
2021-05-31 15101, 2021
ev
there isn't any evidence of malicious intent as such, so it's not anyone's fault as such.
