oh, also we could say that the release thing is the current availability (with the original release date) to make the big lists 'correct' according to the current definition of release date. but i think that would be the worst of all possibilities because that would jjust wreck all the CDs e.g. released in 1986 but repressed with the same packaging in multiple countries up to e.g. 2012
2021-05-31 15148, 2021
ev
ie it would completely change the understanding of what a release date means
2021-05-31 15104, 2021
ev
I think that would make the current data much less useful
2021-05-31 15127, 2021
CatQuest
that was derwin's point earlier too i think, that if dates chnage if we follow the regular way of doing it, that's a new release
2021-05-31 15147, 2021
CatQuest
(wich is ridiclous in the other way because on digital releases this chnages at the drop of a hat)
2021-05-31 15124, 2021
ev
yes that is a long-standing problem. i think we need to think about digital releases completely differently. but i'm not sure of the best way to do that
2021-05-31 15141, 2021
ev
i can only apologise because the above is not that useful either in this respect.
2021-05-31 15155, 2021
CatQuest
nope, this is a good conversation tbh
2021-05-31 15157, 2021
CatQuest
the "digital releases problem" has been an issue for ages. I remember back in.. whas it 2007 or something where people argued that we need to look at this
2021-05-31 15125, 2021
CatQuest
people say "this is only going to be a more and more common thing (digital releases) we need to think completely differntly"
2021-05-31 15114, 2021
CatQuest
you are echoing a sentiment that peopel ahd ages ago. and i agree with that
2021-05-31 15118, 2021
CatQuest
the issue is *what*
2021-05-31 15150, 2021
CatQuest
I'm also not convinced that lumping releases on differnt services together as "he same release" is always a good thing
2021-05-31 15105, 2021
Freso
CatQuest: I’ve been doing an astronomy course this term, and the final class in in 7 minutes.
2021-05-31 15152, 2021
Lotheric
soon, Freso will be red shifting from our point of view
2021-05-31 15155, 2021
ev
CatQuest: the way atisket does it makes good sense I think. It says that releases with the same UPC (if available) and track listing are the same release.
2021-05-31 15156, 2021
Lotheric
;)
2021-05-31 15118, 2021
ev
this makes sense because a tonne of them are uploaded by the same contractors hired by the labels, or the labels themselves
2021-05-31 15136, 2021
CatQuest
we used to do this with releases that had the same tracklist. but if a release had, like a bouns track or 2 then it was another release altogether
2021-05-31 15136, 2021
CatQuest
after ngs we thnakfully went away for mthat
2021-05-31 15136, 2021
CatQuest
today we lump all digital stores's releases together (unless the tracklsit/artwork/barcode/whatever is differnt)
2021-05-31 15144, 2021
CatQuest
you see where i'm going with that
2021-05-31 15113, 2021
CatQuest
Freso: it was more the "soak up some nuclear fusion radiation" bit
2021-05-31 15116, 2021
ev
oh, do you mean that we used to put them as the same release ,not the same release group? so a deezer release same upc same track list is distinct from a spotify release?
2021-05-31 15148, 2021
CatQuest
well if the upc is the same thatm ight be the same release. but
2021-05-31 15104, 2021
CatQuest
but if the only thing is *tracklist* being the same...
2021-05-31 15121, 2021
ev
Yes, OK , I see where this is going and I agree
2021-05-31 15131, 2021
CatQuest
so if that they *are* uploaded by the same contractor to severla palces. sure
2021-05-31 15103, 2021
CatQuest
like that one where availability was differnt in dezer and spotify
2021-05-31 15109, 2021
CatQuest
to me that means not the same release
2021-05-31 15109, 2021
ev
treating each download store / streaming service as a distinct thing might help us to differentiate between a given release being removed. maybe.
2021-05-31 15119, 2021
CatQuest
yes
2021-05-31 15104, 2021
ev
FWIW, I usually add a Bandcamp thing as a separate release, but it's on a case-by-case basis and actually it's something that's not explicitly stated in the documentation. It just 'feels' correct.
2021-05-31 15117, 2021
CatQuest
you see it with bandcamp not to uncommonly. the one on bc is differnt in osme way from other stores
2021-05-31 15128, 2021
CatQuest
lol you said the smae thing i was jsut thinking
2021-05-31 15151, 2021
ev
the other thing is that Bandcamp releases are almost certainly never attached to a label. and they almost nevver have a UPC [although the bandcamp userscript does expose this which is SUPER handy]
2021-05-31 15155, 2021
CatQuest
exactly this. i add it, based on case by case, if it "feels" right, shoudl be documented
2021-05-31 15105, 2021
CatQuest
yes i love that
2021-05-31 15126, 2021
ev
most of the ones i've seen with a UPC are random (most other releases by the artiste not having one) or they're using bandcamp's label functionality
2021-05-31 15136, 2021
CatQuest
yes
2021-05-31 15159, 2021
CatQuest
btw, ev are you "evelyn" from the old network?
2021-05-31 15110, 2021
CatQuest
or did i spell it wrong
2021-05-31 15126, 2021
CatQuest
ack i need to shower anyway. it's so hot and muggy here :(
well, I think we should try and reconsider digital releases generally rather than just in response to issues with atisket's country list output.
2021-05-31 15114, 2021
ev
so i shall try to write a wiki page up sometime soon to get a hang of it.
2021-05-31 15111, 2021
Lotheric
freso, I did 3 semesters in physics at the uni... had an astrophysics course... fun stuff :)
2021-05-31 15131, 2021
CatQuest
[14:48] <CatQuest> Freso: explain
2021-05-31 15131, 2021
CatQuest
...
2021-05-31 15131, 2021
CatQuest
[14:48] <CatQuest> . sunlight?
2021-05-31 15112, 2021
Lotheric
nuclear fusion is happening in stars, yes
2021-05-31 15131, 2021
CatQuest
I feel like im being trolled here.
2021-05-31 15131, 2021
CatQuest
freso first said he was going to soak up some nuclear fusion rays. this sounded propostreous (especially since he was having an astronomy class (wondering if there was soem sort of experiment they where doing))
2021-05-31 15131, 2021
CatQuest
but thne irealised, "this is freso" he was talking aobut.. ah of course sunlight
2021-05-31 15127, 2021
CatQuest
fyi i did phys 1 and 2 a few years ago. got a 5 in phys 1 and woudl ahve in phys2 too if it hadn't been for a disastreous final test (won't go int othat but)
2021-05-31 15149, 2021
CatQuest
also also my teacher was very strickt (but knowledgable)
2021-05-31 15104, 2021
CatQuest
my point is thati know physics to :P
2021-05-31 15108, 2021
CatQuest
too*
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CatQuest
:D
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CatQuest
molybdenum.libera.chat
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CatQuest
:D
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reosarevok
Updating the server
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reosarevok
Done
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CatQuest
hi reo
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reosarevok
Oh no
2021-05-31 15145, 2021
reosarevok
Hi!
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tigerman325
ev: Most digital releases do not report the phonographic copyright as the release label. That hasn't been the case for several years. The Spotify APIs report a release label in addition to the phonographic copyright and copyright labels. Sometimes they are the same, but I'd say most of the time they are not.
2021-05-31 15155, 2021
tigerman325
ev: Tatsumo's ISRC site & a-tisket both show labels for Spotify & a-tisket does for Deezer. Apple Music now even does on every link. You just have to "view-source" the page.
2021-05-31 15118, 2021
tigerman325
ev: But yes, you are correct that many times it shows a label that MB doesn't want as a release label, so we do still have to "figure it out"
2021-05-31 15104, 2021
tigerman325
ev: I'd vote you down on any list removal. We wouldn't remove release dates and countries on any physical media release just because it's not sold there any more. Why treat digital releases any differently.
2021-05-31 15107, 2021
ev
I'm saying i would remove them in the context that they are current availibility, not the availibility at the date they are attached to
2021-05-31 15116, 2021
ev
I wouldn't remove just any list
2021-05-31 15149, 2021
ev
for example, if the list of countries included countries where it wasn't released at that date.
2021-05-31 15114, 2021
tigerman325
ev: a-tisket is enough to prove country availability. The dates might not be accurate, but it IS in that country and looking at Jaxsta the distributor shows countries sometimes that aren't on the iTunes, etc. list. It PROVES without a doubt that that release is available in that country. Only time to remove this is if the release turns out to be a
2021-05-31 15114, 2021
tigerman325
true worldwide release.
2021-05-31 15139, 2021
ev
Nobody looks at jaxta though, this is the problem. They are adding these lists purely from the output of atisket without checking that it was true on the date
2021-05-31 15145, 2021
ev
Nobody is checking these
2021-05-31 15154, 2021
tigerman325
ev: I do agree that unfortunately, many, many, editors just blindly add what-ever a-tisket returns without any futher editing or research. While it annoys me, I'd still rather have the release than not add it at all.
2021-05-31 15157, 2021
ev
Well, I concede that you may be checking these ,but this is the first I have heard of it
2021-05-31 15133, 2021
tigerman325
And the annotation is pointless with the possible exception of "excluded" list to show why there are 230 countries on a release. Say worldwide, except China. Which would be a cool add. Have a Worldwide, except country option instead of listing every country.
2021-05-31 15126, 2021
tigerman325
Oh. and remove any annotation you want. I agree, that is duplication.
2021-05-31 15103, 2021
tigerman325
I post those annotations when I add in the edit notes instead of the annotation for those that want to see exactly what countries were available at the date of the edit.
2021-05-31 15156, 2021
tigerman325
Saw some of your other questions. Yes, If a release has the same barcode, labels (release & copyrights), track listing & artwork, than it's the same release. Doesn't matter if it's on iTunes, Spotify, Deezer, HD Tracks, Qobuz, etc. Unless you can spot a difference, they are the same.
2021-05-31 15106, 2021
tigerman325
And most Bandcamp releases are even the same now, especially if they appear to be the same as the iTunes, etc releases that are also worldwide.
2021-05-31 15136, 2021
tigerman325
"view-source" on Bandcamp and a search for UPC or Identifier, etc. will often times reveal the barcode.
2021-05-31 15157, 2021
tigerman325
Most Bandcamp releases actually do have labels. Just look at the upper left corner and it'll say more releases by such and such label. That's usually the label of the release you are looking at.
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CatQuest
I like the "[worldwide] except" idea
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elomatreb[m]
CatQuest: One wrinkle with that is how to decide if something is actually an exception, e.g. somehow I doubt someone intentionally excludes a random tiny pacific island nations from a release
2021-05-31 15147, 2021
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elomatreb[m]
I would think that most releases fall into two categories: "Available in this country (or maybe a very short list of countries, e.g. DACH states)" and "available as worldwide as technically possible" (e.g. saying a release in unavailable in North Korea doesn't seem too useful)
