<11muxxer.exe> But moderating that would be a huge issue, as in, think of MBz already; it's hard to moderate people adding wrong releases to bands, adding wrong metadata and such. Videogames often fall into a gray area, like, say some dude posted an unfinished demo for some extremely basic asset flip; should that be included onto the database? When I try to think of it, it becomes a problem, and if you were to moderate and curate
2024-08-12 22544, 2024
discordbrainz
what gets onto the site, it'd take an eternity of checking through endless queues of additions.
2024-08-12 22556, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> One would have to think that through
2024-08-12 22516, 2024
lw
i don't see a problem with having an asset flip in the database if someone cares enough to enter it
2024-08-12 22530, 2024
lw
it's still a game, right? MB doesn't care if the music in the database is actually any good or not
2024-08-12 22533, 2024
beanbrain joined the channel
2024-08-12 22528, 2024
function1 joined the channel
2024-08-12 22501, 2024
Erin
i could see the challenge
2024-08-12 22506, 2024
Erin
i guess the question is .... to what end?
2024-08-12 22520, 2024
Erin
like, when is the db being called up?
2024-08-12 22550, 2024
Erin
rather than what it contains or where that comes from, what it is called up for/by is sort of your answer for why it might have cause to exist
2024-08-12 22546, 2024
Erin
in turn, that gives you a sense of if it's viable
2024-08-12 22555, 2024
Erin
or how to define "Viable"
2024-08-12 22523, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> I mean, I think that the thing with such a database would be having to manage its scope. You can just have it to list individual games, say: Assassin's Creed 2, Counter-Strike: Global Offensive, Battlefield 3 and so on, and add some relationships such as an official site, or stores where it is sold, as well as relationships with developers/publishers and consoles it was released for.
2024-08-12 22536, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> But then one can think that such scope is too limited.
2024-08-12 22505, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> Why not add relationships for people who work in the game? After all, they show up in the credits, and in the case of MBz, we already have relationships for even rather menial roles in the production of an album.
2024-08-12 22527, 2024
Erin
well, similarly, if you can figure out why such a database would be called up
2024-08-12 22537, 2024
Erin
or who would be accessing it for a purpose ...
2024-08-12 22538, 2024
lw
sure, everyone listed in the credits screen should be in the database, otherwise what's the point?
2024-08-12 22550, 2024
Erin
those questions would describe to you what data might be useful, in addition to viability
2024-08-12 22530, 2024
lw
it's actually quite useful to be able to look up (for example) who did the voice acting for some random side quest NPC in a game
2024-08-12 22508, 2024
lw
right now i use imdb for that, but imdb is a proprietary database
2024-08-12 22511, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> And then you kinda have to think: what defines an entry? For instance, Splinter Cell: Double Agent has two different releases, two different games under the same name, do you create a different entry for each? And then I think of cases like visual novels or certain other games. For an example, Clannad has over a dozen different releases; some with voice acting, some without, some in different languages, some with just
2024-08-12 22511, 2024
discordbrainz
relatively small differences which are more on the technical side, so do you create subentries for these? I mean, personally I'd say "yes", but from a point of view of using, contributing and maintaining the site, it'd be quite an issue.
2024-08-12 22526, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> Although I'd honestly like to just copy VNDB's relationships, in a way.
2024-08-12 22534, 2024
lw
"two different games under the same name" sounds more or less exactly like an MB release group
2024-08-12 22540, 2024
Erin
yeah
2024-08-12 22536, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> Of course, but the thing is that two different games under the same name aren't the same as a release group, they're be more like two different release groups which share the same cover art and perhaps some recordings, but which are otherwise different in their content. Double Agent on the PS2 has a different plot and slightly different gameplay than the 6th gen and PC versions, and we'd have to think of a game as a
2024-08-12 22536, 2024
discordbrainz
release group, and its releases as the different versions for the game.
2024-08-12 22526, 2024
lw
that's not different to MB release groups, there are many albums which have different content. "a different plot" doesn't seem materially different from different tracks on an album
2024-08-12 22537, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> Which again brings up the question of how do you determine different versions, because technically speaking, a game released for the PS2 and PC can be exactly the same in most aspects, but at a technical level they'll differ; for instance, the PS2 game has a 480p resolution and only runs at 30 FPS, while the PC version maybe goes up to 1080p and has no frame limit.
2024-08-12 22500, 2024
lw
and of course if there are two completely different games that happen to share the same name, you could just add them as separate release groups
2024-08-12 22526, 2024
lw
i can't possibly imagine why you would think 480p vs 1080p would be anything other than a different release in the same group, tbh
2024-08-12 22544, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> Yeah, but the content of the game is still different, in fact, these games are often developed by other developers. Personally I'd say that if the difference between one version and the other is substantial, then each should have its own entry.
2024-08-12 22552, 2024
Erin
i'd say ps2 and pc are comparable to cd vs vinyl vs digital
2024-08-12 22554, 2024
lw
that's again not different from a high-fidelity CD being in the same release group as low-fidelity vinyl or cassette release
2024-08-12 22501, 2024
lw
Erin: jinx!
2024-08-12 22504, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> I meant it as having them as different releases within the same release group.
2024-08-12 22511, 2024
Erin
i was faster so nyaaaaaa
2024-08-12 22531, 2024
Erin
it might also ahve different metadata
2024-08-12 22543, 2024
Erin
different publishers or studio associations or something
2024-08-12 22555, 2024
Erin
so i could see it
2024-08-12 22534, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> I mean, the digital and CD versions of an album might be the same, but they're different releases, right? Games, on the other hand, are somewhat different, because at a technical level, the same game will have differences between different consoles, so that's why I wonder if each version should have its own entry or if one entry should hold multiple console relationships, you know.
2024-08-12 22539, 2024
lw
yeah, MB basically handles all this stuff already for music... trivial to have multiple release of the same release group with different publishers... there might be some edge cases you need to work out for games but i see no actual issues here
2024-08-12 22547, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> VNDB has an individual entry for each release of a game
2024-08-12 22518, 2024
lw
"the digital and CD versions of an album might be the same, but they're different releases, right?" - no, digital version might include extra tracks that couldn't fit on the CD, same like a PC game might include extra content that couldn't fit in the PS2 release
2024-08-12 22541, 2024
lw
MB doesn't specify that two releases in a release group are "the same" in any meaningful sense
2024-08-12 22555, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> Which means that it has a unique entry for the Windows and PS2 versions of a game, even if they're the same.
2024-08-12 22506, 2024
lw
e.g. music digital downloads often include video tracks that can't be on the CD
2024-08-12 22536, 2024
lw
if GamesBrainz was a thing, i'm 100% sure every platform release of a game would be a different release in the same group even if it's 100% identical
2024-08-12 22536, 2024
Erin
sometimes
2024-08-12 22540, 2024
Erin
or the other way around
2024-08-12 22543, 2024
Erin
hidden tracks on CDs
2024-08-12 22548, 2024
Erin
extra inserts with DVDs
2024-08-12 22510, 2024
Erin
also, mb does sort of have a sameness, but only for translations
2024-08-12 22523, 2024
lw
in a literal sense, the "Windows version" and "PS2 version" of a game cannot be "the same" because i can't play the PS2 version on my PC
2024-08-12 22528, 2024
Erin
i was asking a few weeks ago about like, rereleases, but that does not exist as a relationship
2024-08-12 22537, 2024
lw
in the same way i can't play a vinyl LP in my CD player even if the track content is identical
2024-08-12 22537, 2024
lw
or, maybe a better example, on MB a digital and CD release are still two separate releases even if the digital version is literally just a 44.1/16 rip of the CD
2024-08-12 22521, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> I guess that such a databse would have to include, at least, these entities: * Game > Individual releases * Characters * Franchise (I guess it'd be the equivalent to a MBz Series) * Companies (publishers, developers, etc) * Person (everyone involved with the making of a game) I'm thinking those would be the main entities needed for any type of videogame database.
2024-08-12 22529, 2024
Erin
also they will have different cat#s on different media
2024-08-12 22503, 2024
Erin
platforms
2024-08-12 22507, 2024
Erin
you'll need platforms
2024-08-12 22511, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> Right
2024-08-12 22515, 2024
lw
i don't think it has to includes 'Characters' but it would be useful if it did
2024-08-12 22522, 2024
Erin
to include consoles, but also OS versions
2024-08-12 22529, 2024
Erin
not just "pc" but like .... "windows 98"
2024-08-12 22532, 2024
Erin
or whatever it is
2024-08-12 22549, 2024
Erin
that'll matter to retro contexts, and well .... everything is retro eventually
2024-08-12 22500, 2024
lw
yeah, i think a compatibility field would be useful
2024-08-12 22509, 2024
Erin
not compatibility
2024-08-12 22512, 2024
Erin
that's the platform
2024-08-12 22517, 2024
lw
like have a master list of platforms (similar to instruments in MB) and select what platforms the release can run on
2024-08-12 22520, 2024
Erin
just like it's ps2, not just "playstation"
2024-08-12 22527, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> Well, I mean, if you think of it, game characters tend to be vital, but it'd be a bit complicated with the relationships, since you'd have to have them related to whoever designed them, voice actors, and then deal with the fact that a character might have variations from release to release, as well as being featured in bootleg games.
2024-08-12 22542, 2024
lw
Erin: ok sure, you could have both. Platform: Windows, Compatibility: Windows 95, Windows 95, Windows ME
2024-08-12 22511, 2024
Erin
that would be comparable to saying "platform: playstation, compatibility: 2, 3, 4"
2024-08-12 22512, 2024
lw
i feel like maybe "Windows" could be a family... but maybe that turns up some weird edge cases...
2024-08-12 22539, 2024
lw
Erin: sure, what's wrong with that? many games are released exclusively on "Platform: PlayStation" and "Compatibility: PS2, PS3"
2024-08-12 22559, 2024
lw
less so nowadays as Sony is releasing their entire catalogue on PC apparently... but certainly in the past
2024-08-12 22522, 2024
Erin
im just wondering why we need to split the fields
2024-08-12 22534, 2024
Erin
in my mind, the version is part of it
2024-08-12 22550, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> Each release would have, I suppose, relationships such as: * Genre (perhaps this should be left down to tags) * Publisher, Developers, any company or group involved * People who worked on the game * Release date for each region or country as in MBz * Console or platform * Medium * Characters * Barcodes and other identifiers * Singleplayer / Multiplayer
2024-08-12 22558, 2024
Erin
you might "think" of windows as a thing, rather than a collection of things, but ... it isn't
2024-08-12 22508, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> I could build a database scheme for this already lol
2024-08-12 22509, 2024
Erin
and the question is ... what's the use, i guess?
2024-08-12 22534, 2024
Erin
is there importance to the particular independent storage of "windows" and "xp"
2024-08-12 22503, 2024
Erin
it would be like trying to group release labels
2024-08-12 22512, 2024
Erin
which, id ont know, maybe mb has that feature?
2024-08-12 22517, 2024
Erin
but you sure don't need that for a release
2024-08-12 22520, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> I think it'd be easier to say "PC" and then be allowed to pick "Windows", "Linux" and/or "Mac", or whatever other OS. Thing is, if you include each Windows version, who's not to say you'd also have to include each Mac version, or different Linux distros?
2024-08-12 22528, 2024
lw
Erin: to my mind, a "Windows release" is a specific set of binary files distinct from a "PlayStation release" or a "Linux release" or an "Atari 2600 release". but the "Windows release" may or may not run on particular Windows versions, which are attributes of that specific release
2024-08-12 22533, 2024
Erin
on a release edit interface, i dont pick "king" and then which sub variant of "king"
2024-08-12 22546, 2024
Erin
i just go "ok is it king ... or king records, for this particular era?"
2024-08-12 22508, 2024
Erin
windows release is not a specific set of binary files
2024-08-12 22509, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> You could just say "Windows" and specify compatibility in additional notes, it's not like you can't necessarily run older games in modern machines, there's usually a workaround to that.
2024-08-12 22514, 2024
lw
like, if i buy an SACD, i can probably play it in my CD player using the CDDA overlay track, but it's still a "SACD release", not a "CD release"
2024-08-12 22522, 2024
Erin
windows encompasses 16, 32, and 64 bit machines
2024-08-12 22536, 2024
Erin
and that's just at the highest level
2024-08-12 22546, 2024
Erin
within operating system versions, we then have directX availability
2024-08-12 22546, 2024
lw
yes, but you can't draw lines between those. 32-bit Windows can run 16-bit applications and 64-bit Windows can run 32-bit applications
2024-08-12 22558, 2024
Erin
directX will inherently be related to minimum requirements
2024-08-12 22507, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> ah, that too
2024-08-12 22520, 2024
Erin
and so, by definition, windows executable stuff will not run on older versions than it was generally thought to be for
2024-08-12 22524, 2024
lw
well, you know, i don't care enough to actually argue about this since even OP appears to be arguing against their own proposal :-)
2024-08-12 22524, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> I was thinking, maybe engines or technologies should have an entry in the database?
2024-08-12 22533, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> Like, Source Engine... should it have an entry?
2024-08-12 22540, 2024
Erin
im picky cause i've written a lot of code that interacts with windows at a low level
2024-08-12 22543, 2024
Erin
...linux too actually
2024-08-12 22551, 2024
Erin
i think engines are worth having
2024-08-12 22559, 2024
lw
sure, so i have i. i disagree with you not because i don't know what i'm talking about :-)
2024-08-12 22500, 2024
Erin
not as specific categorizations, but like, fields, similar to barcode?
2024-08-12 22509, 2024
lw
and yes, "Engine" seems like a reasonable thing to include
2024-08-12 22519, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> Then I also think, what about third party software, implementations, pyshics engines and such? Perhaps those could be used too.
2024-08-12 22520, 2024
Erin
so yeah, thats another distinction
2024-08-12 22530, 2024
Erin
catagorizable data, like, things you'd search on
2024-08-12 22536, 2024
Erin
vs simple metadata, which is just .... fields
2024-08-12 22542, 2024
lw
external engines should be added like artists
2024-08-12 22543, 2024
Erin
the latter ... if you can think of it, you can add it
2024-08-12 22553, 2024
lw
"Physics engine: PhysX"
2024-08-12 22500, 2024
Erin
maybe they're relationships?
2024-08-12 22514, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> I also wonder if within these engines one could include its versions.
2024-08-12 22523, 2024
lw
perhaps with some sort of generic 'software' entry in the same way we have 'artist' but artist can be a mixing engineering, producer, whatever
2024-08-12 22524, 2024
Erin
Release <blah> makes use of <engine>
2024-08-12 22531, 2024
Erin
sounds like relationship to me
2024-08-12 22534, 2024
lw
yeah, it should be a relationship
2024-08-12 22544, 2024
Erin
although i guess artists are a field, so ... mixed
2024-08-12 22545, 2024
lw
add 'Software: PhysX' and then add 'Physics engine: PhysX' on the release
2024-08-12 22505, 2024
lw
that works for engine too
2024-08-12 22521, 2024
Erin
of course that means having libraries as a thing to track
2024-08-12 22527, 2024
Erin
and there's a slippery slope question there
2024-08-12 22533, 2024
Erin
what's worth having and w hat isnt
2024-08-12 22538, 2024
lw
might be worth considering how versions should be tracked
2024-08-12 22545, 2024
Erin
yeah sure unreal engine matters
2024-08-12 22551, 2024
Erin
but like
2024-08-12 22551, 2024
lw
e.g. if something uses Unreal 3, should that be indicated different from something using UE 5
2024-08-12 22503, 2024
Erin
does it matter what C++ compiler they used?
2024-08-12 22505, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> Which is my initial issue: managing the scope of such database. MBz doesn't track the technology or specific instruments used to record an album.
2024-08-12 22520, 2024
Erin
instruments exist i think
2024-08-12 22529, 2024
Erin
not as metadata for an album, but as credits to performers
2024-08-12 22533, 2024
lw
Erin: that would actually be useful in the case of Factorio as they built some macOS releases with a too-new compiler and libc++ was missing on old releases
2024-08-12 22540, 2024
Erin
ohgod
2024-08-12 22540, 2024
discordbrainz
<11muxxer.exe> Yeah, but you just say "Electric Guitar", not "Gibson Les Paul 1958"
2024-08-12 22544, 2024
lw
so sure, if the developer says what compiler they used, why not include that
2024-08-12 22550, 2024
Erin
sure, but electric guitar is enough
2024-08-12 22558, 2024
Erin
music doesnt work like computers
2024-08-12 22507, 2024
Erin
if you pick up the same model, you wont play the same song
2024-08-12 22518, 2024
Erin
or if you're good and pick up a different model, you can
2024-08-12 22540, 2024
lw
i actually think MB should say "Gibson Les Paul 1958" if that's what the credits say or there's a realiable source for it
2024-08-12 22542, 2024
Erin
whereas the engine, for example, is inherently a condition on which things work or dont work
