" American companies are not allowed to invest or do business in the country "
2021-05-29 14914, 2021
derwin
" Bandcamp, Inc. Oakland, California, U.S. "
2021-05-29 14935, 2021
finalsummer
there's a difference between a company making something unavailable because of licensing and domestic policy blocking a website
2021-05-29 14946, 2021
derwin
and by your logic, you can't verify whether it is or isn't reachable there
2021-05-29 14957, 2021
derwin
without trying to access it from north korea, so I guess we.. assume we can?
2021-05-29 14902, 2021
finalsummer
it doesnt matter because the blocking isnt done by the retailer
2021-05-29 14908, 2021
derwin
do we know it isn't?
2021-05-29 14911, 2021
finalsummer
yes
2021-05-29 14917, 2021
derwin
they can be punished by the state if they do business in north korea
2021-05-29 14923, 2021
derwin
that seems a pretty strong incentive not to
2021-05-29 14937, 2021
finalsummer
i refuse to argue this any further since youre being dishonest
2021-05-29 14916, 2021
derwin
I'm exploring a set of ideas, "dishonest" seems a weird framing
2021-05-29 14921, 2021
finalsummer
if you cannot see the difference between downloading a geoip list and applying blocks based on it for specific releases or a country deciding to block a website youre being dishonest
2021-05-29 14949, 2021
derwin
I'm suggesting that Bandcamp might very well ban north korea, because it's well within its capabilities, and it is incentivized to
2021-05-29 14956, 2021
derwin
if it did so, it probably would not announce that it is
2021-05-29 14903, 2021
finalsummer
why would they block a country that firewalls its users
2021-05-29 14906, 2021
derwin
and maybe that's sufficient for our purposes
2021-05-29 14916, 2021
derwin
because that country has an army of hackers? lol
2021-05-29 14927, 2021
derwin
and to avoid any chance of accidentally doing business with people there?
2021-05-29 14911, 2021
derwin
I'm mostly trying to explore the idea that we understand from the outside what countries things are actually "available" in
2021-05-29 14923, 2021
derwin
I'm not really asserting anything especially strongly
2021-05-29 14928, 2021
finalsummer
youre making weird assumptions without proof (bandcamp blocking a country firewalled from the internet, spotify lying about geo restrictions from their api) and im being really patient with you
2021-05-29 14930, 2021
derwin
" Spotify is not currently available in China, however a premium subscription lets you travel and use Spotify abroad in any country while you are traveling. "
2021-05-29 14948, 2021
derwin
so.. you're physically located in china, and can access the release
2021-05-29 14952, 2021
derwin
but it's not "available" there
2021-05-29 14959, 2021
derwin
this doesn't seem to parse to me
2021-05-29 14937, 2021
derwin
finalsummer: yeah I mean, honestly, you're not being especially patient with me, or anyone else you've been talking to today, but sure!
2021-05-29 14911, 2021
derwin
as I told you, it's very late where I am, and I am not necessarily advancing a coherent point, I'm trying to explore a set of ideas and look at them from different perspectives
2021-05-29 14929, 2021
derwin
there is really no reason for you to take this approach as a personal conflict
2021-05-29 14954, 2021
finalsummer
im not doing so?
2021-05-29 14907, 2021
derwin
around the point I explicitly concede that I might be missing something obvious where it's late, it's probably not me being "dishonest"
2021-05-29 14925, 2021
ev
accusing people of dishonesty is at best unhelpful
2021-05-29 14950, 2021
derwin
"confused" I might be!
2021-05-29 14959, 2021
derwin
"missing something obvious" that too!
2021-05-29 14917, 2021
derwin
"sleepy and not thinking well" ... maybe!
2021-05-29 14915, 2021
derwin
I'm just confused by the idea that someone might want to ask musicbrainz "what countries does spotify make this release that is referenced by this deezer url available in"
2021-05-29 14927, 2021
Freso
derwin: "to be "correct" shouldn't any service where it isn't available in that country get a new release?" - a physical release released in 5 different countries on 3 different days is still only a single release in MB, if it is otherwise the same.
2021-05-29 14954, 2021
ats has quit
2021-05-29 14925, 2021
akashgp0912 has quit
2021-05-29 14926, 2021
finalsummer
what countries can you access this release in if you combine all possible ways you can access it in feels useful
2021-05-29 14931, 2021
derwin
Freso: right, see, like I said -- 05:21 < derwin> it's late where I am, so maybe there's an easy analogy to physical media
2021-05-29 14952, 2021
derwin
ok. so the set of releases that are not XW, by this measure, are...
2021-05-29 14931, 2021
finalsummer
i'm mostly just annoyed at trying to shift the argument by bringing up websites blocked by a country which i feel is absurd
2021-05-29 14940, 2021
derwin
who did that?
2021-05-29 14945, 2021
finalsummer
north korea thing
2021-05-29 14953, 2021
finalsummer
sorry if im rude but at that point i feel like were not talking about the same thing
2021-05-29 14957, 2021
derwin
I brought up a country that a company might block because they are legally prohibited from doing business in it
2021-05-29 14931, 2021
derwin
and asked what meaning it would have that the product was "available" there
2021-05-29 14940, 2021
derwin
if it cannot be purchased from there, for example
2021-05-29 14958, 2021
derwin
because I'm trying to explore the meaning of "available"
2021-05-29 14913, 2021
Freso
I feel like derwin is arguing from a very abstract place, and finalsummer is arguing for a very concrete place. Does this seem like a reasonable understanding?
2021-05-29 14922, 2021
derwin
similarly, I can, with my american pro spotify account, access spotify in china because spotify does not prevent me from accessing it there
2021-05-29 14933, 2021
derwin
so is it "available" there or not
2021-05-29 14941, 2021
derwin
Freso: yes, that's what I've tried to express repeatedly.
2021-05-29 14915, 2021
derwin
(china does prevent me from accessing it, but that's not what we care about here)
2021-05-29 14904, 2021
finalsummer
if the retailer prohibits people from accessing it based on your ip geo info, that's a concrete restriction, but nothing else imo
2021-05-29 14925, 2021
ats joined the channel
2021-05-29 14939, 2021
derwin
finalsummer: it's ok, I'm not too upset, but I mention that you do seem to have had a similarly dismissive or semi-confrontational interaction with others on this topic and that seems to suggest that this topic is a lot more obviously defined than my exploration of it suggests that it is.
2021-05-29 14950, 2021
Freso
Anyway. I’m going to go shower and then sit (or maybe even… walk!) in the sun for a bit. Please remember that we all want the best data and that we all have different perspectives backgrounds and that it’s okay to walk away and let a discussion rest to resume it at a later point. <3
2021-05-29 14930, 2021
finalsummer
i think bandcamp might have some restrictions where the payment provider doesn't allow you to buy stuff
2021-05-29 14936, 2021
derwin
I am about to go to sleep, heh, and yes, I appreciate finalsummer going back and forth about this thing that ultimately is me kinda whining about what seems like a lot of data-of-questionable-semantic-meaning in the database
2021-05-29 14943, 2021
finalsummer
which doesnt apply to free releases
2021-05-29 14959, 2021
derwin
I even understand that the mb philosophy is that, generally, more data is better
2021-05-29 14928, 2021
derwin
I posed some hypotheticals which I think inform the sort of semantic meaning I am hoping from from "country-based-release events" versus "service-based release events"
2021-05-29 14955, 2021
derwin
if the release events were related to services, almost all of my subconscious objection disappears
2021-05-29 14900, 2021
finalsummer
i do apologize if im being confrontative, i kinda get a bit tired when im walking around in circles with arguments
2021-05-29 14929, 2021
derwin
it's ok, no need to apologize again, I apologize for being a big confrontational with the way I gave that feedback
2021-05-29 14958, 2021
derwin
I definitely have more tolerance for going around in circles with an argument when things are poorly (to me) defined
2021-05-29 14919, 2021
derwin
because that's a technique I use to explore an idea space
2021-05-29 14935, 2021
derwin
*a bit confrontational
2021-05-29 14945, 2021
finalsummer
anyways my argument is that i think only conscious restrictions by retailers should count, everything else is bound to interpretation but spotify saying that a release isn't available in mexico isn't really
2021-05-29 14917, 2021
derwin
I don't like that what makes bandcamp an "XW-ifier" is that they don't publicize whether they restrict any countries, and we can't produce any cases where they do
2021-05-29 14941, 2021
derwin
but beatport is not an XW-ifier because they sometimes do (but almost always don't), but we can produce cases where they do
2021-05-29 14902, 2021
derwin
if a track is available to stream on youtube... is that an xw-ifier?
2021-05-29 14914, 2021
derwin
no, because they region limimt.
2021-05-29 14941, 2021
derwin
soundcloud region-limits for some subset of its products, but not others.
2021-05-29 14951, 2021
derwin
so is bandcamp the actual only xw-ifier service?
2021-05-29 14910, 2021
finalsummer
my main problem with how country lists are currently implemented is that picard picks one country alphabetically based on the iso short code which is usually afghanistan
2021-05-29 14941, 2021
derwin
and if we went to north korea and somehow go outside their firewall and tried to access bandcamp and couldn't, would that prove that it's not an xw-ifier?
2021-05-29 14935, 2021
finalsummer
if they had some 'this content isn't available in your territory' splash screen and someone could offer proof for this i wouldnt object
2021-05-29 14935, 2021
derwin
like, is what makes it an xw-ifier that it doesn't publish that it restricts by ip/country or that it actually doesn't?
2021-05-29 14912, 2021
finalsummer
actually i take that back sorry
2021-05-29 14917, 2021
derwin
so, to you, it's about functionality that announces "Region restriction" not about actual availability?
2021-05-29 14942, 2021
derwin
(this is exactly what I was trying to explore with my otherwise admittedly silly hypothetical)
2021-05-29 14948, 2021
finalsummer
i think honestly i only object if it's inconsistent
2021-05-29 14902, 2021
derwin
I am finally tired enough to go to sleep
2021-05-29 14910, 2021
finalsummer
like if the countries differ from release to release
2021-05-29 14922, 2021
derwin
sorry to drop off now, but I'm curious what you and others have to further say
2021-05-29 14929, 2021
finalsummer
also one more thing. early beatport releases i would set to XW
2021-05-29 14930, 2021
derwin
aha! so it's *release based* region restriction
2021-05-29 14952, 2021
derwin
so in the spotify example, "we operate in country [x] but some subset of releases are not available there"
2021-05-29 14924, 2021
derwin
is that actually the case with what their API replies with? I feel like there have been cases where it seemed like it was saying
2021-05-29 14937, 2021
finalsummer
if it's from the 00s predating common distribution and has a low beatport id i dont think they implemented region restrictions at that point
2021-05-29 14938, 2021
derwin
"we plan to operate in this country so our API returns it, but no releases are yet available there"
2021-05-29 14900, 2021
derwin
hrm, I'd expect those releases to get retroactive region restriction
2021-05-29 14906, 2021
finalsummer
there was a patch to exclude some countries like that made to atisket
2021-05-29 14907, 2021
derwin
but intersting point
2021-05-29 14922, 2021
sublim20 joined the channel
2021-05-29 14957, 2021
finalsummer
basically there was labels submitting their back catalogue to beatport and some of them have no album art, just the label logo
2021-05-29 14913, 2021
derwin
ok, finalsummer, seriously, thank you for your willingness to discuss this at length, sorry if it got ever so slightly contentious there for a sec, I think Freso is correct that the friction was based on the concrete vs. abstract approach