#musicbrainz

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      • finalsummer
        china blocks bandcamp if you want a real example
      • 2021-05-29 14903, 2021

      • derwin
        " American companies are not allowed to invest or do business in the country "
      • 2021-05-29 14914, 2021

      • derwin
        " Bandcamp, Inc. Oakland, California, U.S. "
      • 2021-05-29 14935, 2021

      • finalsummer
        there's a difference between a company making something unavailable because of licensing and domestic policy blocking a website
      • 2021-05-29 14946, 2021

      • derwin
        and by your logic, you can't verify whether it is or isn't reachable there
      • 2021-05-29 14957, 2021

      • derwin
        without trying to access it from north korea, so I guess we.. assume we can?
      • 2021-05-29 14902, 2021

      • finalsummer
        it doesnt matter because the blocking isnt done by the retailer
      • 2021-05-29 14908, 2021

      • derwin
        do we know it isn't?
      • 2021-05-29 14911, 2021

      • finalsummer
        yes
      • 2021-05-29 14917, 2021

      • derwin
        they can be punished by the state if they do business in north korea
      • 2021-05-29 14923, 2021

      • derwin
        that seems a pretty strong incentive not to
      • 2021-05-29 14937, 2021

      • finalsummer
        i refuse to argue this any further since youre being dishonest
      • 2021-05-29 14916, 2021

      • derwin
        I'm exploring a set of ideas, "dishonest" seems a weird framing
      • 2021-05-29 14921, 2021

      • finalsummer
        if you cannot see the difference between downloading a geoip list and applying blocks based on it for specific releases or a country deciding to block a website youre being dishonest
      • 2021-05-29 14949, 2021

      • derwin
        I'm suggesting that Bandcamp might very well ban north korea, because it's well within its capabilities, and it is incentivized to
      • 2021-05-29 14956, 2021

      • derwin
        if it did so, it probably would not announce that it is
      • 2021-05-29 14903, 2021

      • finalsummer
        why would they block a country that firewalls its users
      • 2021-05-29 14906, 2021

      • derwin
        and maybe that's sufficient for our purposes
      • 2021-05-29 14916, 2021

      • derwin
        because that country has an army of hackers? lol
      • 2021-05-29 14927, 2021

      • derwin
        and to avoid any chance of accidentally doing business with people there?
      • 2021-05-29 14911, 2021

      • derwin
        I'm mostly trying to explore the idea that we understand from the outside what countries things are actually "available" in
      • 2021-05-29 14923, 2021

      • derwin
        I'm not really asserting anything especially strongly
      • 2021-05-29 14928, 2021

      • finalsummer
        youre making weird assumptions without proof (bandcamp blocking a country firewalled from the internet, spotify lying about geo restrictions from their api) and im being really patient with you
      • 2021-05-29 14930, 2021

      • derwin
        " Spotify is not currently available in China, however a premium subscription lets you travel and use Spotify abroad in any country while you are traveling. "
      • 2021-05-29 14948, 2021

      • derwin
        so.. you're physically located in china, and can access the release
      • 2021-05-29 14952, 2021

      • derwin
        but it's not "available" there
      • 2021-05-29 14959, 2021

      • derwin
        this doesn't seem to parse to me
      • 2021-05-29 14937, 2021

      • derwin
        finalsummer: yeah I mean, honestly, you're not being especially patient with me, or anyone else you've been talking to today, but sure!
      • 2021-05-29 14911, 2021

      • derwin
        as I told you, it's very late where I am, and I am not necessarily advancing a coherent point, I'm trying to explore a set of ideas and look at them from different perspectives
      • 2021-05-29 14929, 2021

      • derwin
        there is really no reason for you to take this approach as a personal conflict
      • 2021-05-29 14954, 2021

      • finalsummer
        im not doing so?
      • 2021-05-29 14907, 2021

      • derwin
        around the point I explicitly concede that I might be missing something obvious where it's late, it's probably not me being "dishonest"
      • 2021-05-29 14925, 2021

      • ev
        accusing people of dishonesty is at best unhelpful
      • 2021-05-29 14950, 2021

      • derwin
        "confused" I might be!
      • 2021-05-29 14959, 2021

      • derwin
        "missing something obvious" that too!
      • 2021-05-29 14917, 2021

      • derwin
        "sleepy and not thinking well" ... maybe!
      • 2021-05-29 14915, 2021

      • derwin
        I'm just confused by the idea that someone might want to ask musicbrainz "what countries does spotify make this release that is referenced by this deezer url available in"
      • 2021-05-29 14927, 2021

      • Freso
        derwin: "to be "correct" shouldn't any service where it isn't available in that country get a new release?" - a physical release released in 5 different countries on 3 different days is still only a single release in MB, if it is otherwise the same.
      • 2021-05-29 14954, 2021

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      • 2021-05-29 14926, 2021

      • finalsummer
        what countries can you access this release in if you combine all possible ways you can access it in feels useful
      • 2021-05-29 14931, 2021

      • derwin
        Freso: right, see, like I said -- 05:21 < derwin> it's late where I am, so maybe there's an easy analogy to physical media
      • 2021-05-29 14952, 2021

      • derwin
        ok. so the set of releases that are not XW, by this measure, are...
      • 2021-05-29 14931, 2021

      • finalsummer
        i'm mostly just annoyed at trying to shift the argument by bringing up websites blocked by a country which i feel is absurd
      • 2021-05-29 14940, 2021

      • derwin
        who did that?
      • 2021-05-29 14945, 2021

      • finalsummer
        north korea thing
      • 2021-05-29 14953, 2021

      • finalsummer
        sorry if im rude but at that point i feel like were not talking about the same thing
      • 2021-05-29 14957, 2021

      • derwin
        I brought up a country that a company might block because they are legally prohibited from doing business in it
      • 2021-05-29 14931, 2021

      • derwin
        and asked what meaning it would have that the product was "available" there
      • 2021-05-29 14940, 2021

      • derwin
        if it cannot be purchased from there, for example
      • 2021-05-29 14958, 2021

      • derwin
        because I'm trying to explore the meaning of "available"
      • 2021-05-29 14913, 2021

      • Freso
        I feel like derwin is arguing from a very abstract place, and finalsummer is arguing for a very concrete place. Does this seem like a reasonable understanding?
      • 2021-05-29 14922, 2021

      • derwin
        similarly, I can, with my american pro spotify account, access spotify in china because spotify does not prevent me from accessing it there
      • 2021-05-29 14933, 2021

      • derwin
        so is it "available" there or not
      • 2021-05-29 14941, 2021

      • derwin
        Freso: yes, that's what I've tried to express repeatedly.
      • 2021-05-29 14915, 2021

      • derwin
        (china does prevent me from accessing it, but that's not what we care about here)
      • 2021-05-29 14904, 2021

      • finalsummer
        if the retailer prohibits people from accessing it based on your ip geo info, that's a concrete restriction, but nothing else imo
      • 2021-05-29 14925, 2021

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      • 2021-05-29 14939, 2021

      • derwin
        finalsummer: it's ok, I'm not too upset, but I mention that you do seem to have had a similarly dismissive or semi-confrontational interaction with others on this topic and that seems to suggest that this topic is a lot more obviously defined than my exploration of it suggests that it is.
      • 2021-05-29 14950, 2021

      • Freso
        Anyway. I’m going to go shower and then sit (or maybe even… walk!) in the sun for a bit. Please remember that we all want the best data and that we all have different perspectives backgrounds and that it’s okay to walk away and let a discussion rest to resume it at a later point. <3
      • 2021-05-29 14930, 2021

      • finalsummer
        i think bandcamp might have some restrictions where the payment provider doesn't allow you to buy stuff
      • 2021-05-29 14936, 2021

      • derwin
        I am about to go to sleep, heh, and yes, I appreciate finalsummer going back and forth about this thing that ultimately is me kinda whining about what seems like a lot of data-of-questionable-semantic-meaning in the database
      • 2021-05-29 14943, 2021

      • finalsummer
        which doesnt apply to free releases
      • 2021-05-29 14959, 2021

      • derwin
        I even understand that the mb philosophy is that, generally, more data is better
      • 2021-05-29 14928, 2021

      • derwin
        I posed some hypotheticals which I think inform the sort of semantic meaning I am hoping from from "country-based-release events" versus "service-based release events"
      • 2021-05-29 14955, 2021

      • derwin
        if the release events were related to services, almost all of my subconscious objection disappears
      • 2021-05-29 14900, 2021

      • finalsummer
        i do apologize if im being confrontative, i kinda get a bit tired when im walking around in circles with arguments
      • 2021-05-29 14929, 2021

      • derwin
        it's ok, no need to apologize again, I apologize for being a big confrontational with the way I gave that feedback
      • 2021-05-29 14958, 2021

      • derwin
        I definitely have more tolerance for going around in circles with an argument when things are poorly (to me) defined
      • 2021-05-29 14919, 2021

      • derwin
        because that's a technique I use to explore an idea space
      • 2021-05-29 14935, 2021

      • derwin
        *a bit confrontational
      • 2021-05-29 14945, 2021

      • finalsummer
        anyways my argument is that i think only conscious restrictions by retailers should count, everything else is bound to interpretation but spotify saying that a release isn't available in mexico isn't really
      • 2021-05-29 14917, 2021

      • derwin
        I don't like that what makes bandcamp an "XW-ifier" is that they don't publicize whether they restrict any countries, and we can't produce any cases where they do
      • 2021-05-29 14941, 2021

      • derwin
        but beatport is not an XW-ifier because they sometimes do (but almost always don't), but we can produce cases where they do
      • 2021-05-29 14902, 2021

      • derwin
        if a track is available to stream on youtube... is that an xw-ifier?
      • 2021-05-29 14914, 2021

      • derwin
        no, because they region limimt.
      • 2021-05-29 14941, 2021

      • derwin
        soundcloud region-limits for some subset of its products, but not others.
      • 2021-05-29 14951, 2021

      • derwin
        so is bandcamp the actual only xw-ifier service?
      • 2021-05-29 14910, 2021

      • finalsummer
        my main problem with how country lists are currently implemented is that picard picks one country alphabetically based on the iso short code which is usually afghanistan
      • 2021-05-29 14941, 2021

      • derwin
        and if we went to north korea and somehow go outside their firewall and tried to access bandcamp and couldn't, would that prove that it's not an xw-ifier?
      • 2021-05-29 14935, 2021

      • finalsummer
        if they had some 'this content isn't available in your territory' splash screen and someone could offer proof for this i wouldnt object
      • 2021-05-29 14935, 2021

      • derwin
        like, is what makes it an xw-ifier that it doesn't publish that it restricts by ip/country or that it actually doesn't?
      • 2021-05-29 14912, 2021

      • finalsummer
        actually i take that back sorry
      • 2021-05-29 14917, 2021

      • derwin
        so, to you, it's about functionality that announces "Region restriction" not about actual availability?
      • 2021-05-29 14942, 2021

      • derwin
        (this is exactly what I was trying to explore with my otherwise admittedly silly hypothetical)
      • 2021-05-29 14948, 2021

      • finalsummer
        i think honestly i only object if it's inconsistent
      • 2021-05-29 14902, 2021

      • derwin
        I am finally tired enough to go to sleep
      • 2021-05-29 14910, 2021

      • finalsummer
        like if the countries differ from release to release
      • 2021-05-29 14922, 2021

      • derwin
        sorry to drop off now, but I'm curious what you and others have to further say
      • 2021-05-29 14929, 2021

      • finalsummer
        also one more thing. early beatport releases i would set to XW
      • 2021-05-29 14930, 2021

      • derwin
        aha! so it's *release based* region restriction
      • 2021-05-29 14952, 2021

      • derwin
        so in the spotify example, "we operate in country [x] but some subset of releases are not available there"
      • 2021-05-29 14924, 2021

      • derwin
        is that actually the case with what their API replies with? I feel like there have been cases where it seemed like it was saying
      • 2021-05-29 14937, 2021

      • finalsummer
        if it's from the 00s predating common distribution and has a low beatport id i dont think they implemented region restrictions at that point
      • 2021-05-29 14938, 2021

      • derwin
        "we plan to operate in this country so our API returns it, but no releases are yet available there"
      • 2021-05-29 14900, 2021

      • derwin
        hrm, I'd expect those releases to get retroactive region restriction
      • 2021-05-29 14906, 2021

      • finalsummer
        there was a patch to exclude some countries like that made to atisket
      • 2021-05-29 14907, 2021

      • derwin
        but intersting point
      • 2021-05-29 14922, 2021

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      • finalsummer
        basically there was labels submitting their back catalogue to beatport and some of them have no album art, just the label logo
      • 2021-05-29 14913, 2021

      • derwin
        ok, finalsummer, seriously, thank you for your willingness to discuss this at length, sorry if it got ever so slightly contentious there for a sec, I think Freso is correct that the friction was based on the concrete vs. abstract approach
      • 2021-05-29 14937, 2021

      • derwin goes to sleep
      • 2021-05-29 14902, 2021

      • finalsummer
      • 2021-05-29 14918, 2021

      • finalsummer
        any release like this that predates common digital distribution norms i would just set to xw
      • 2021-05-29 14937, 2021

      • finalsummer
        no artwork etc
      • 2021-05-29 14953, 2021

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      • 2021-05-29 14917, 2021

      • CatQuest
        [14:06] <derwin> returns zero results, I don't see how they're actually per-country release events
      • 2021-05-29 14917, 2021

      • CatQuest
        [14:06] <derwin> they're *per-service* release events?
      • 2021-05-29 14917, 2021

      • CatQuest
        that would actually fix several problems re digital distribution and dates/countries/formats/etc
      • 2021-05-29 14917, 2021

      • CatQuest
        (ofcourse in addition to the appropriate link)
      • 2021-05-29 14918, 2021

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      • 2021-05-29 14918, 2021

      • CatQuest
        freso: .... I disagree. If something was released in $COUNTRY it should be listed as released in $COUNTRY, if it has since been recalled.
      • 2021-05-29 14923, 2021

      • CatQuest
        I very much agee with that
      • 2021-05-29 14925, 2021

      • CatQuest
        I was thinking this. that makes actually sense to me. what if w had a "spotify" ""country"" ?
      • 2021-05-29 14901, 2021

      • CatQuest
        also, see XE is not the EU .so WX is not well "the entire world"
      • 2021-05-29 14911, 2021

      • CatQuest
        the same way that peopel are arguing that VA is not "every artis ever"
      • 2021-05-29 14926, 2021

      • CatQuest
        (whic i used ot think. but this strain of logic makes me ealise i was wrong)
      • 2021-05-29 14933, 2021

      • CatQuest
        [14:20] <derwin> to be "correct" shouldn't any service where it isn't available in that country get a new release?
      • 2021-05-29 14933, 2021

      • CatQuest
        [14:20] <derwin> deezer gets countries x,y,z and itunes gets countries x,y
      • 2021-05-29 14933, 2021

      • CatQuest
        that was what I was thinknig too. it would mean that
      • 2021-05-29 14918, 2021

      • ev
        some sort of extension of 'distributed by' relationship to differentiate digital distribution...
      • 2021-05-29 14938, 2021

      • CatQuest
        (reading this conversation was interesting)
      • 2021-05-29 14909, 2021

      • CatQuest
        ev: not a bad idea actually!
      • 2021-05-29 14901, 2021

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      • CatQuest
        that some user name :D
      • 2021-05-29 14913, 2021

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      • Rexodys[m]
        Hi folks! Any way to use 3 digit track number on albums when there is 100 tracks or more in Picard? :/
      • 2021-05-29 14946, 2021

      • CatQuest
        yh
      • 2021-05-29 14956, 2021

      • CatQuest
        uh. like it won't tag with that?
      • 2021-05-29 14901, 2021

      • CatQuest
        outsidecontext?
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