for this sort of thing, the music is part of a game release, and the game *itself* is an official release
2025-04-22 11207, 2025
kepstinbrainz
i think of it more like adding a game to musicbrainz as an official release which includes some music, rather than extracting music from the game and then treating it as separate bootleg soundtrack trelease
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riedler[m]
tbh I agree that this makes more sense
2025-04-22 11231, 2025
riedler[m]
I think of it this way: the only way you can get the music is by buying the game. A bootleg would imply that someone pirated it and can give it to you separately
2025-04-22 11250, 2025
tarulia[m]
the mix for music in the game is often wildly different from soundtrack releases so I dont agree with this at all
2025-04-22 11251, 2025
riedler[m]
well, I mean you can also get a bootleg, but like
2025-04-22 11251, 2025
riedler[m]
I'm describing what's in the game
2025-04-22 11223, 2025
tarulia[m]
there is a very clear distinction in intent from the artist/studio to release a game and the music just being part of the game, and the studio or artist also releasing a soundtrack
2025-04-22 11248, 2025
tarulia[m]
if you can't get the soundtrack separately in any meaningful way, it's not a release
2025-04-22 11214, 2025
tarulia[m]
riedler[m]: thats not at all what bootleg implies
2025-04-22 11236, 2025
tarulia[m]
bootleg just means its unofficial which I would argue it is when it's part of the game files and not an actual release
2025-04-22 11211, 2025
tarulia[m]
if that's the argument for it being a release then someone needs to go ahead and add a couple hundred thousand games to the databse
2025-04-22 11216, 2025
tarulia[m]
s/databse/database/
2025-04-22 11244, 2025
riedler[m]
personally I'd be in favour of that since a lot of my music is from games
2025-04-22 11204, 2025
riedler[m]
most games just also have official soundtrack releases
2025-04-22 11215, 2025
tarulia[m]
I mean you still can, noone's saying you couldn't. My argument is that it is not official. It's gamefiles in a random order copied from the game, not a release
2025-04-22 11217, 2025
riedler[m]
as in on spotify or amazon and such
2025-04-22 11227, 2025
tarulia[m]
thats different
2025-04-22 11229, 2025
tarulia[m]
because those are releases
2025-04-22 11232, 2025
tarulia[m]
(because duh)
2025-04-22 11235, 2025
riedler[m]
I mean obv
2025-04-22 11229, 2025
tarulia[m]
I mean I cited a precedent above already so š¤·
2025-04-22 11245, 2025
tarulia[m]
feel free to scour the edit history of that deus ex release and maybe you can find when it was set as bootleg and why
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tarulia[m]
and it also showcases the distinction that I'm making:
2025-04-22 11240, 2025
tarulia[m]
The gamerip "release" is a collection of 223 tracks/files is in status `Bootleg`
2025-04-22 11240, 2025
tarulia[m]
The actually real commercially sold soundtrack is `Official + Soundtrack`
fwiw, there already _are_ a number of games in musicbrainz as releases, in part because there were quite a few games in the 90s which had discs with mixed data and audio tracks, such that you can play the game disc in a cd player, or rip them.
2025-04-22 11205, 2025
kepstin
it doesn't make sense to call those bootlegs; it's just the game release. which has some music that can be played without the game itself running.
2025-04-22 11207, 2025
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kepstin
that said, i'm not sure the release type on e.g. https://musicbrainz.org/release/75a6e83c-25fe-4c5ā¦ for example - "Album+Soundtrack" really makes sense. it's not the soundtrack for a game, it is itself the game :/
2025-04-22 11208, 2025
kepstin
for some reason that's been lumped in the same release group as the separate soundtrack releases.
2025-04-22 11230, 2025
riedler[m]
what do you suggest? other with no secondary type?
2025-04-22 11243, 2025
tarulia[m]
<kepstin> "fwiw, there already _are_ a..." <- That is also a different situation because at that point the artist intent is clearly for it to be a distinct release you can listen to
2025-04-22 11228, 2025
tarulia[m]
kepstin: that's kind of been my point the entire time that you've been arguing against -_-
2025-04-22 11231, 2025
kepstin
hmm? no, not really; the choice of using a cd was just a technical means of getting playable high quality audio before e.g. mp3 files (or computers fast enough to decode mp3 files) were available
2025-04-22 11246, 2025
tarulia[m]
wat
2025-04-22 11256, 2025
kepstin
and in many cases these were difficult or dangerous to play in cd players at the time, since the first track was a data track containing game files
2025-04-22 11259, 2025
tarulia[m]
so what are CDs today then lol
2025-04-22 11217, 2025
tarulia[m]
I mean some would say a fossil I guess
2025-04-22 11218, 2025
tarulia[m]
but still
2025-04-22 11259, 2025
kepstin
the releases i'm talking about, included the one i linked, are games which included background music that played while the game was running; it just happened that the background music was implemented in the game by having the computer play audio tracks selected by the game engine on the computer's cdrom drive.
2025-04-22 11232, 2025
kepstin
on modern releases, the same thing is done, except that the game engine plays mp3 or whatever audio files which are included in the game directory
2025-04-22 11236, 2025
kepstin
it's the _same thing_
2025-04-22 11200, 2025
tarulia[m]
except its not the same thing
2025-04-22 11213, 2025
kepstin
you could play the game disc of older games in a cd player, you can play the music files out of the game directory in an mp3 player
2025-04-22 11246, 2025
kepstin
how is "these music tracks included on the media that the game shipped on can be played outside the game" not the same thing?
2025-04-22 11204, 2025
riedler[m]
oh boy
2025-04-22 11217, 2025
riedler[m]
ping me when there's a consensus :neofox_laugh_sweat:
2025-04-22 11233, 2025
kepstin
in the case of the AIR game that i linked, they also _separately_ released a soundtrack for the game which was intended to be listened to on cd players
2025-04-22 11238, 2025
kepstin
(the game disc was not)
2025-04-22 11242, 2025
tarulia[m]
when you put a game disc (good luck finding one) into a CD drive you will hear nothing because it's all packed data and *not* an Audio CD.
2025-04-22 11242, 2025
tarulia[m]
What you're talking about is a CD that was specifically made to be Audio CD *and* Data CD. That the data CD also accesses the music part is clever engineering.
2025-04-22 11243, 2025
tarulia[m]
The point though is that there is a clear intent for you to be able to put it in an Audio CD player and listen to it.
2025-04-22 11215, 2025
kepstin
except... you're not. that's just a coincidence based on the particular way that it made sense technologically at the time to ship music
2025-04-22 11254, 2025
kepstin
the cds didn't play as music in all players, and could result in nasty (even speaker breaking...) sounds playing if you had a player that tried to play the data track as sound.
2025-04-22 11255, 2025
tarulia[m]
kepstin: I dont believe that to be true TBH. If they didn't want you to be able to put it in an audio CD player then they could have just packed WAV (or probably MIDI for this) files instead of partitioning the CD in such a way that it is possible
2025-04-22 11217, 2025
kepstin
computers at the time _were not able to play music in realtime in software while the game was running_
2025-04-22 11239, 2025
tarulia[m]
That makes 0 sense. Because clearly they did, from the CD.
2025-04-22 11206, 2025
kepstin
the cdrom drive was essentially hardware accellerated music playback, since it had a built-in dac. the music never actually went through the computer at all
2025-04-22 11231, 2025
kepstin
the cdrom drive decoded/played the audio, it ran with an analog cable into the sound card, which mixed it into the output sound along with sound effects from the game
2025-04-22 11206, 2025
kepstin
all the game did was tell the drive to play a specific track on the cd, possibly with looping options.
2025-04-22 11211, 2025
tarulia[m]
You're meaning to tell me that in 2000 we didn't have computers capable of playing music in real time? That is your argument? Because that is just not true, it was in the dark ages but I was there lol
2025-04-22 11236, 2025
kepstin
2000s was borderline, but certainly older games it made more sense
2025-04-22 11239, 2025
tarulia[m]
and thats even ignoring that MP3 was released in 1991
2025-04-22 11248, 2025
tarulia[m]
* in 1991 and was playable
2025-04-22 11217, 2025
tarulia[m]
* in 1991 and was playable (by 2000 anyway)
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phoenix_05[m]
>not able to play music in realtime in software *while* the game was running
2025-04-22 11248, 2025
kepstin
anyways, i'm giving you some historical info on why some games happen to have their music formatted as audio tracks on a disc rather than files on a disc. and why i don't think that really makes any meaningful difference between audio tracks on a game disc as cd audio vs. audio tracks in a game download as mp3 files
2025-04-22 11218, 2025
kepstin
if the game dev didn't want you to be able to play the music files in the downloaded game separately, they could have packed them into an encrypted archive or something - and a lot of games do.
2025-04-22 11242, 2025
tarulia[m]
I'm aware, but that still doesn't make it a soundtrack release
2025-04-22 11245, 2025
kepstin
but sometimes there's just loose files that you can play separately if you want. and imo, it makes sense to track the game in musicbrainz as a release if that's the case
2025-04-22 11245, 2025
tarulia[m]
as you yourself said
2025-04-22 11249, 2025
kepstin
it's not a soundtrack release
2025-04-22 11252, 2025
tarulia[m]
and that was all that I was arguing
2025-04-22 11253, 2025
kepstin
the release is _the game itself_
2025-04-22 11235, 2025
tarulia[m]
OK? So? I'm talking about the release status on Musicbrainz WTF
2025-04-22 11252, 2025
tarulia[m]
You yourself said Album+Soundtrack doesn't make sense, so what does?
2025-04-22 11259, 2025
tarulia[m]
I never argued against adding it entirely
2025-04-22 11201, 2025
kepstin
the only primary release group type in musicbrainz that makes sense right now is 'other'
2025-04-22 11223, 2025
kepstin
and none of the secondary types seem to be applicable
2025-04-22 11242, 2025
kepstin
(for the cases where both the game with separately playable music and a soundtrack album exist, a release-groupārelease-group "soundtrack of" relation might make sense, hmm.)
2025-04-22 11208, 2025
tarulia[m]
well if you go back you'll notice I was never talking about the type? I said the status should be bootleg because it's not an official soundtrack release
2025-04-22 11226, 2025
kepstin
if the release is the game itself, then it is official
2025-04-22 11238, 2025
tarulia[m]
š¤¦OK whatever
2025-04-22 11252, 2025
tarulia[m]
hello wall
2025-04-22 11232, 2025
kepstin
sure if someone extracted the files from the game and then made them available as a download separate from the game, i'd call that a "bootleg soundtrack"
2025-04-22 11216, 2025
kepstin
but if you buy the game from the game's legitimate sales channels and it includes some audio files in the game dir that you can play in itunes or whatever, then the release is the game itself.
2025-04-22 11242, 2025
kepstin
and it's official in that case.
2025-04-22 11230, 2025
kepstin
also, i was talking about type i was answering a question you explicitly asked: "You yourself said Album+Soundtrack doesn't make sense, so what does?"
The Bootleg status lists this exact situation with the SH2 Complete "release". Music ripped from the game. It *does not imply* that it is illegal and it also doesn't imply how "hard" a rip is. If it's just a copy-paste, that is still a rip.
2025-04-22 11241, 2025
kepstin
sure, but if you just play the files that are in the game directory, you're not ripping anything. we also have style guidelines discouraging adding bootlegs for digital releases which simply losslessly copy data from some different media format.
2025-04-22 11208, 2025
kepstin
(although some specific bootlegs which fit that are in the db anyways because they're notable for some reason or another)
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kepstin
the guideline does say "physical" release, but honestly given modern distribution practices it might be better to remove that qualifier.
2025-04-22 11217, 2025
kepstin
another interesting, overlapping topic is how to deal with games that include the ability to select and play specific music tracks in game, often using a music player specific ui. for some games, this might be the only way to get titles for the music tracks :)
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kepstin
this is overlapping, since you may or may not be able to play the tracks from the game data while the game isn't running.
2025-04-22 11215, 2025
kepstin
the AIR game I linked earlier has a bonus features menu that lets you play tracks, but you could also use a cd player outside the game.
2025-04-22 11227, 2025
kepstin
honkai star rail has packed data files, but has an interactive "record player" in the game world that lets you see a list of the tracks and pick one to play. (also, it's a live service game so it's constantly updating...)
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kepstinbrainz
(an interesting fun quirk about older games that used cd audio tracks for background music is that in some of them you can swap out the game disk while the game is running and put in your own music cd to play instead)
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kepstinbrainz
but yeah, it seems pretty simple for me? if someone has extracted music from a game and provided the music to other people, that's a bootleg soundtrack. if someone purchases a game which includes music and then they play the included music directly from the game media, then that is an official release of a game (which, since musicbrainz doesn't have "game" as a release type, would be "other").
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aerozol[m]
If thereās a bunch of accessible music in a folder in the download, called āmusicā or whatever, then I have never added the release as a āripā. Just my two cents
2025-04-22 11250, 2025
aerozol[m]
FWIW this was my definition of āripā in the vgm guidelines I was peddling on MB-street for a while (maybe time for a revisit, now that podcasts kinda make sense?):
2025-04-22 11253, 2025
aerozol[m]
āāGameripā releases of game audio extracted from game files, or recorded from gameplay. Usually requiring third-party tools, and editorial decisions by a āripperā. These are bootleg releases.ā
