#musicbrainz-devel

warp: No, see http://www.vereinsbesteuerung.info/leitfaden_us.... (in German).

in the area where you are fully taxed, yes you can get it back.

but in the non-taxed area you cannot get it back.

"Soweit die Vorsteuer im Zusammenhang mit steuerfreien Umsätzen steht, kann der Verein die Vorsteuer insoweit nicht geltend machen."

and our idea is to be in the non taxed area.

yep, that.

hm, I wonder if that's different here.

Possibly. As I said, exemptions are not harmonized.

still, the problem is that "get back" requires you to spend other money elsewhere. which we're not going to be doing.

ruaok: no, I'm saying you get that back from the tax office.

I've often spent more VAT and I invoiced, as I wasn't invoicing VAT to mb :)

yes, but what I am saying is that we will have next to no expenses that have VAT on them.

this is very different from a person spending VAT>

ianmcorvidae: I suspect that all those workarounds will be found out.

(in light of the earlier note that spending money on services like hosting counts as a place where we can get back VAT, as I understood it?)

ruaok: if you're not paying VAT, there's no problem. if you do have to pay VAT over wages, then you can get that back.

THe way I understand it is that it takes 6 months for the EC to make a decision.

after that comes a 3 month due diligence phase.

and during that due diligence phase someone is going to come snooping around to make sure you're not ying.

+l

from what I understand you can only get back what you'v;e spent in vat. no?

ruaok: yes, if you're not spending VAT there's nothing to get back.

ok.

then thats a real problem for us.

But warp is right in that you can claim money directly from the tax office.

Let's assume a for-profit non-tax-exempt company.

ruaok: if I'm invoicing you EUR 1000 + EUR 190 VAT, then you've paid EUR 190 in VAT and you can get that back. if ianmcorvidae invoices you for EUR 1000 and EUR 0 VAT, then you didn't pay VAT and get nothing back.

They buy services for lots of money (plus VAT), but don't have any income yet.

ruaok: so either way, you end up paying the same amount.

Then they can still reclaim the VAT they paid from the tax office.

Now the problem in the case of MeB is that (only) for the tax-exempt part, this won't work.

Because it is essentially treated as a consumer.

ok, both of you are making total sense to me now.

phew. shit is complicated.

which sadly means that I understood what the tax person was saying

oh, no, because of the tax-exempt thing

laaame

yeah.

then there are geinnützige GmbHs.

do you know anything about those chirlu` ?

unless we start making a whole bunch of (taxable, so there's another minepit) income with the paid WS :P

Moving to the EU and getting *employed* as opposed to a contractor might help. :)

heh, well, that might be a possibility

ruaok: Well, they are just companies set up for not-for-profit purposes.

I bet that would bring other taxes too. :)

and does that change their tax duties?

yeah, then there's the... what was it, Lohnteuer, we mentioned earlier

Only for Ian, not for MeB. ;-)

yeah, but I also get competent health insurance without paying out the ass for it, so I probably don't mind ;)

ruaok: I think it is essentially the same situation as with e.V.s.

there's so much shit you have to pay as an employer, I'm not sure you want to be that in the EU :)

It's just that you have owners instead of members.

Kündigungsschutz is very strict in Germany. No hire and fire.

(Although there are exceptions for small companies with only few employees.)

ah. I'm interesting in having owners.

how is that different for contract people?

Not much, essentially, because contractors working (mostly) for one company are treated almost like employees.

The term is "Scheinselbständiger".

heh, 'few employees'. so presumably we'd be fine as long as we don't hire 10x the number of people we have, since that's usually about where 'few' is defined in these sorts of things? :P

Few is either 5 or 10, let me look it up …

ok, das ergibt auch sinn.

(Scheinselbständiger)

ah, so only twice to five times what we currently have ;)

10

(and part-times are only counted partially towards that number)

so, I think the next step might be to find some government org that want more cool high tech companies to move to germany.

and to apply to get their assistance.

Well, there are 17 governments, one of them might be interested. :-)

always the advantage of that, when the EU's concerned :)

for now.

Oh, I was just counting Germany. :-)

if that state consolidation program goes through, there will be far fewer. :)

Rather unlikely, I’d think.

ya, me too. :)

vielen dank für deine hilfe. noch einmal. :)

Why Germany specifically, anyway?

np

falls wir tatsächlich ein e.V. gründen, hast du bock mitglied zu sein? Ich brauche 7, glaube ich.

reosarevok: because I speak it and it has reasonable non-profit laws.

other countries are more convoluted.

poland would apparently be the best country, but I speak no polish.

but since all that is harmonized, the vat on paychecks would still apply there.

muss da ein beitrag sein?

1€, wenn ja.

Ist nicht zwingend.

müssen mitglieder was machen?

ich glaube nicht.

man muss sie nur haben.

Einmal jährlich zur Mitgliederversammlung (zumindest ein paar).

ich dachte erst, ich hab mich verklickt, als hier auf einmal deutsch gesprochen wurde :)

:D

Mitgliederversammlung == mb summit.

Mineo, nikki: macht ihr mit, im falle des falles?

hier an der uni gibt es vereine mit > 2000 mitgliedern, bei denen vielleicht so 50 zur mitgliederversammlung auftauchen - solang in der satzung geregelt ist, dass die mv dann beschlussfähig ist, geht das wohl

klaro :)

ja, natürlich

Ein paar, wie gesagt. :-)

super.

awesome!!

simon sagt, er wird auch mitglied

Mineo: will they stop loading whatever unrelated image that shows in Google then?

if you have mbids in your files, yes :)

yay!

Neat. Thanks Mineo!