in the area where you are fully taxed, yes you can get it back.
2014-01-13 01330, 2014
ruaok
but in the non-taxed area you cannot get it back.
2014-01-13 01334, 2014
chirlu`
"Soweit die Vorsteuer im Zusammenhang mit steuerfreien Umsätzen steht, kann der Verein die Vorsteuer insoweit nicht geltend machen."
2014-01-13 01341, 2014
ruaok
and our idea is to be in the non taxed area.
2014-01-13 01358, 2014
ruaok
yep, that.
2014-01-13 01301, 2014
warp
hm, I wonder if that's different here.
2014-01-13 01324, 2014
chirlu`
Possibly. As I said, exemptions are not harmonized.
2014-01-13 01342, 2014
ruaok
still, the problem is that "get back" requires you to spend other money elsewhere. which we're not going to be doing.
2014-01-13 01308, 2014
warp
ruaok: no, I'm saying you get that back from the tax office.
2014-01-13 01345, 2014
warp
I've often spent more VAT and I invoiced, as I wasn't invoicing VAT to mb :)
2014-01-13 01307, 2014
ruaok
yes, but what I am saying is that we will have next to no expenses that have VAT on them.
2014-01-13 01308, 2014
ianmcorvidae wonders if there's a way that we can get bitmap and I classified as 'services' that doesn't undermine the "the nonprofit should be paying people in order for us to get EC money"
2014-01-13 01318, 2014
ruaok
this is very different from a person spending VAT>
2014-01-13 01347, 2014
ruaok
ianmcorvidae: I suspect that all those workarounds will be found out.
2014-01-13 01350, 2014
ianmcorvidae
(in light of the earlier note that spending money on services like hosting counts as a place where we can get back VAT, as I understood it?)
2014-01-13 01303, 2014
warp
ruaok: if you're not paying VAT, there's no problem. if you do have to pay VAT over wages, then you can get that back.
2014-01-13 01315, 2014
ruaok
THe way I understand it is that it takes 6 months for the EC to make a decision.
2014-01-13 01326, 2014
ruaok
after that comes a 3 month due diligence phase.
2014-01-13 01345, 2014
ruaok
and during that due diligence phase someone is going to come snooping around to make sure you're not ying.
2014-01-13 01348, 2014
ruaok
+l
2014-01-13 01338, 2014
ruaok
from what I understand you can only get back what you'v;e spent in vat. no?
2014-01-13 01333, 2014
warp
ruaok: yes, if you're not spending VAT there's nothing to get back.
2014-01-13 01348, 2014
ruaok
ok.
2014-01-13 01354, 2014
ruaok
then thats a real problem for us.
2014-01-13 01318, 2014
chirlu`
But warp is right in that you can claim money directly from the tax office.
2014-01-13 01314, 2014
chirlu`
Let's assume a for-profit non-tax-exempt company.
2014-01-13 01333, 2014
warp
ruaok: if I'm invoicing you EUR 1000 + EUR 190 VAT, then you've paid EUR 190 in VAT and you can get that back. if ianmcorvidae invoices you for EUR 1000 and EUR 0 VAT, then you didn't pay VAT and get nothing back.
2014-01-13 01346, 2014
chirlu`
They buy services for lots of money (plus VAT), but don't have any income yet.
2014-01-13 01354, 2014
warp
ruaok: so either way, you end up paying the same amount.
2014-01-13 01300, 2014
chirlu`
Then they can still reclaim the VAT they paid from the tax office.
2014-01-13 01303, 2014
chirlu`
Now the problem in the case of MeB is that (only) for the tax-exempt part, this won't work.
2014-01-13 01323, 2014
chirlu`
Because it is essentially treated as a consumer.
2014-01-13 01314, 2014
ruaok
ok, both of you are making total sense to me now.
2014-01-13 01336, 2014
warp
phew. shit is complicated.
2014-01-13 01339, 2014
ianmcorvidae wonders if this means that me moving to the EU and thus invoicing VAT would actually *help* MB
2014-01-13 01342, 2014
ruaok
which sadly means that I understood what the tax person was saying
2014-01-13 01355, 2014
ianmcorvidae
oh, no, because of the tax-exempt thing
2014-01-13 01358, 2014
ianmcorvidae
laaame
2014-01-13 01301, 2014
ruaok
yeah.
2014-01-13 01315, 2014
ruaok
then there are geinnützige GmbHs.
2014-01-13 01323, 2014
ruaok
do you know anything about those chirlu` ?
2014-01-13 01329, 2014
ianmcorvidae
unless we start making a whole bunch of (taxable, so there's another minepit) income with the paid WS :P
2014-01-13 01333, 2014
chirlu`
Moving to the EU and getting *employed* as opposed to a contractor might help. :)
2014-01-13 01348, 2014
ianmcorvidae
heh, well, that might be a possibility
2014-01-13 01316, 2014
chirlu`
ruaok: Well, they are just companies set up for not-for-profit purposes.
2014-01-13 01322, 2014
ruaok
I bet that would bring other taxes too. :)
2014-01-13 01342, 2014
ruaok
and does that change their tax duties?
2014-01-13 01344, 2014
ianmcorvidae
yeah, then there's the... what was it, Lohnteuer, we mentioned earlier
2014-01-13 01350, 2014
chirlu`
Only for Ian, not for MeB. ;-)
2014-01-13 01316, 2014
ianmcorvidae
yeah, but I also get competent health insurance without paying out the ass for it, so I probably don't mind ;)
2014-01-13 01322, 2014
chirlu`
ruaok: I think it is essentially the same situation as with e.V.s.
2014-01-13 01330, 2014
warp
there's so much shit you have to pay as an employer, I'm not sure you want to be that in the EU :)
2014-01-13 01345, 2014
chirlu`
It's just that you have owners instead of members.
2014-01-13 01312, 2014
chirlu`
Kündigungsschutz is very strict in Germany. No hire and fire.
2014-01-13 01330, 2014
chirlu`
(Although there are exceptions for small companies with only few employees.)
2014-01-13 01352, 2014
ruaok
ah. I'm interesting in having owners.
2014-01-13 01310, 2014
ruaok
how is that different for contract people?
2014-01-13 01321, 2014
chirlu`
Not much, essentially, because contractors working (mostly) for one company are treated almost like employees.
2014-01-13 01331, 2014
chirlu`
The term is "Scheinselbständiger".
2014-01-13 01345, 2014
ianmcorvidae
heh, 'few employees'. so presumably we'd be fine as long as we don't hire 10x the number of people we have, since that's usually about where 'few' is defined in these sorts of things? :P
2014-01-13 01335, 2014
chirlu`
Few is either 5 or 10, let me look it up …
2014-01-13 01311, 2014
ruaok
ok, das ergibt auch sinn.
2014-01-13 01315, 2014
ruaok
(Scheinselbständiger)
2014-01-13 01317, 2014
ianmcorvidae
ah, so only twice to five times what we currently have ;)
2014-01-13 01326, 2014
chirlu`
10
2014-01-13 01348, 2014
chirlu`
(and part-times are only counted partially towards that number)
2014-01-13 01319, 2014
ruaok
so, I think the next step might be to find some government org that want more cool high tech companies to move to germany.
2014-01-13 01327, 2014
ruaok
and to apply to get their assistance.
2014-01-13 01335, 2014
chirlu`
Well, there are 17 governments, one of them might be interested. :-)
2014-01-13 01354, 2014
ianmcorvidae
always the advantage of that, when the EU's concerned :)
2014-01-13 01358, 2014
CatQuest joined the channel
2014-01-13 01358, 2014
ruaok
for now.
2014-01-13 01309, 2014
chirlu`
Oh, I was just counting Germany. :-)
2014-01-13 01322, 2014
ruaok
if that state consolidation program goes through, there will be far fewer. :)
2014-01-13 01325, 2014
chirlu`
Rather unlikely, I’d think.
2014-01-13 01335, 2014
ruaok
ya, me too. :)
2014-01-13 01302, 2014
ruaok
vielen dank für deine hilfe. noch einmal. :)
2014-01-13 01308, 2014
reosarevok
Why Germany specifically, anyway?
2014-01-13 01330, 2014
chirlu`
np
2014-01-13 01349, 2014
ruaok
falls wir tatsächlich ein e.V. gründen, hast du bock mitglied zu sein? Ich brauche 7, glaube ich.
2014-01-13 01307, 2014
ruaok
reosarevok: because I speak it and it has reasonable non-profit laws.
2014-01-13 01317, 2014
ruaok
other countries are more convoluted.
2014-01-13 01331, 2014
ruaok
poland would apparently be the best country, but I speak no polish.
2014-01-13 01343, 2014
chirlu`
Wenn sich die Mitgliedsbeiträge in Grenzen halten. :)
2014-01-13 01352, 2014
ruaok
but since all that is harmonized, the vat on paychecks would still apply there.
2014-01-13 01308, 2014
ruaok
muss da ein beitrag sein?
2014-01-13 01317, 2014
ruaok
1€, wenn ja.
2014-01-13 01307, 2014
chirlu`
Ist nicht zwingend.
2014-01-13 01336, 2014
nikki
müssen mitglieder was machen?
2014-01-13 01352, 2014
ruaok
ich glaube nicht.
2014-01-13 01358, 2014
ruaok
man muss sie nur haben.
2014-01-13 01340, 2014
chirlu`
Einmal jährlich zur Mitgliederversammlung (zumindest ein paar).
2014-01-13 01308, 2014
Mineo
ich dachte erst, ich hab mich verklickt, als hier auf einmal deutsch gesprochen wurde :)
2014-01-13 01339, 2014
nikki
:D
2014-01-13 01324, 2014
ruaok
Mitgliederversammlung == mb summit.
2014-01-13 01344, 2014
ruaok
Mineo, nikki: macht ihr mit, im falle des falles?
2014-01-13 01301, 2014
Mineo
hier an der uni gibt es vereine mit > 2000 mitgliedern, bei denen vielleicht so 50 zur mitgliederversammlung auftauchen - solang in der satzung geregelt ist, dass die mv dann beschlussfähig ist, geht das wohl
2014-01-13 01306, 2014
Mineo
klaro :)
2014-01-13 01314, 2014
nikki
ja, natürlich
2014-01-13 01315, 2014
chirlu`
Ein paar, wie gesagt. :-)
2014-01-13 01325, 2014
ruaok
super.
2014-01-13 01357, 2014
Mineo also just got some patches merged into VLC to support coverartarchive.org as a cover art source
2014-01-13 01315, 2014
ruaok
awesome!!
2014-01-13 01320, 2014
nikki
simon sagt, er wird auch mitglied
2014-01-13 01327, 2014
reosarevok
Mineo: will they stop loading whatever unrelated image that shows in Google then?
