hmm, that's pretty much exactly what I wanted to do, tho :)
2014-09-18 26102, 2014
hawke
I’m not completely sure about that 'native' thing.
2014-09-18 26111, 2014
kepstin-laptop
it's pretty much required, imo
2014-09-18 26119, 2014
hawke
shouldn’t it just display whatever is appropriate for your currently-selected locale?
2014-09-18 26143, 2014
kepstin-laptop does not want to see japanese artist names transliterated
2014-09-18 26157, 2014
kepstin-laptop
despite otherwise using the site in an english locale
2014-09-18 26101, 2014
chirlu`
Some people want to see the native name.
2014-09-18 26123, 2014
ianmcorvidae
yeah -- and dealing with currently-selected locale is not a particularly easy task either, since it's tied to translations (and especially, which translations we actually *have*)
2014-09-18 26134, 2014
ianmcorvidae
expressing these preferences is quite nontrivial
2014-09-18 26157, 2014
ianmcorvidae
now, making all the primary-for-locale aliases more prominent would probably be a good idea
2014-09-18 26102, 2014
hawke
…and some people *do* want to see their local-name variant. There’s no reason that one option is more valid than the other, you’ll displease people either way.
2014-09-18 26115, 2014
ianmcorvidae
native is, however, what we currently do
2014-09-18 26128, 2014
hawke
English is also what we currently do. :-p
2014-09-18 26129, 2014
ianmcorvidae
defaulting to not changing too much all at once is a pretty standard strategy :)
2014-09-18 26129, 2014
chirlu`
hawke: It could be a preference.
2014-09-18 26134, 2014
ianmcorvidae
no, it isn't
2014-09-18 26138, 2014
kepstin-laptop
the other thing is - in the case where we don't have an alias matching your locale, how do we pick which one to show?
2014-09-18 26152, 2014
ianmcorvidae
if you put an artist name in english rather than the native language (when they vary), then it should be changed
2014-09-18 26159, 2014
kepstin-laptop
hawke: artist names are not all translated/transliterated into english in the current db.
2014-09-18 26114, 2014
zas
i was wondering, if i set my locale to 'fr', load a release from a japanese artist, which has an alias set for 'en', i will still get the 'ja' version, where i clearly prefer the 'en' one
2014-09-18 26120, 2014
hawke
ianmcorvidae: I meant that the website is currently only displayed in English.
2014-09-18 26137, 2014
ianmcorvidae
hawke: that is an entirely different discussion that has nothing to do with aliases :P
2014-09-18 26142, 2014
chirlu`
If there is no matching alias, it should probably default to the native name again.
2014-09-18 26102, 2014
hawke
ianmcorvidae: Just that ‘what we do’ doesn’t mean it’s the best way to do things.
2014-09-18 26106, 2014
ianmcorvidae
anyway, this is the point of it being hard to express preferences
2014-09-18 26110, 2014
hawke
yeah.
2014-09-18 26113, 2014
ianmcorvidae
hawke: sure, but changing smaller things rather than bigger things is, from a decision level, a better way to do it than trying to predict what the best way is on limited and usually wrong information
2014-09-18 26117, 2014
ianmcorvidae
(which is all we have)
2014-09-18 26115, 2014
hawke
I feel like adding a 'native' flag just makes editing things unnecessarily complicated. But maybe it is actually necessarily-complicated.
2014-09-18 26117, 2014
ianmcorvidae
so as far as the choice to move things to be all aliases, a way that changes less is a better way, in the absence of better information
2014-09-18 26130, 2014
ianmcorvidae
it's not any different than having a separate name field vs. alias field
2014-09-18 26146, 2014
ianmcorvidae
you mark native for what you would, previously, have put in the name field, and otherwise don't
2014-09-18 26117, 2014
hawke
But currently most people don’t deal with aliases or primary or anything at all.
2014-09-18 26123, 2014
ianmcorvidae
except that you have one editing interface and you gain all the information associated with locales, alias types (potentially), etc.
2014-09-18 26123, 2014
hawke
They just worry about the name, if that.
2014-09-18 26126, 2014
chirlu`
It could even _look_ like there are still “names” vs. “aliases”, UI-wise.
2014-09-18 26101, 2014
kepstin-laptop
if you create an artist, you will enter a name, select the language of the name (possibly optionally), and the initial name will probably get marked as native.
2014-09-18 26114, 2014
ianmcorvidae
sure, and most people will continue to enter one name, rather than several, and mark it as "hey, probably use this one"
2014-09-18 26119, 2014
kepstin-laptop
and if you care futher, you can add more names
2014-09-18 26147, 2014
zas
in Picard, one can select only one preferred locale for translations of artist's names, at least user should be able to select few locales or set of locales
2014-09-18 26151, 2014
ianmcorvidae
but they'll do so with the option to add more, if they want and are able, and to mark the locale, etc., which they can't currently do
2014-09-18 26159, 2014
ianmcorvidae
in fact, the native checkbox doesn't even need to appear until you add a second, since until you have at least two it's totally extraneous :P
kepstin-laptop: except browsers are also shit at this :P
2014-09-18 26142, 2014
chirlu`
First thing I do when installing a browser is to remove everything from that list.
2014-09-18 26154, 2014
hawke
I really like the way wikidata handles local aliases…
2014-09-18 26103, 2014
kepstin-laptop
well, that's mostly the ui being hidden, and partly web sites sucking at implementing the matching algorithms
2014-09-18 26111, 2014
ianmcorvidae
because a single ordered list doesn't accurately express preferences either, since it's a decision tree based on availability, completeness, and non-machine-translatability
2014-09-18 26131, 2014
chirlu`
(But I might do otherwise if websites would mark the quality of their language versions truthfully.)
2014-09-18 26137, 2014
ianmcorvidae
before you even get into specifics of domain-specific language preferences
2014-09-18 26139, 2014
hawke
display my native language primarily and then show translations in the languages I have chosen. Bang, done.
2014-09-18 26147, 2014
chirlu`
I hope to get the native language of the website this way, which I expect to be of the best quality, and it works most of the time.
2014-09-18 26121, 2014
chirlu`
If I had German in that list, I’d get the horrible “translation” of the FSF website, for instance.
2014-09-18 26145, 2014
ianmcorvidae
many sites also consider machine translation sufficient (which is terrible, and not at all correct)
2014-09-18 26107, 2014
ianmcorvidae
if you're fluent in multiple languages, native $second_language is much better than machine-translated $first_language
2014-09-18 26110, 2014
chirlu`
I am afraid the FSF translation was made by a human. :-(
2014-09-18 26118, 2014
ianmcorvidae
yeah
2014-09-18 26134, 2014
chirlu`
But a human who isn’t very good at understanding English.
2014-09-18 26156, 2014
ianmcorvidae
crappy human translation can be substituted for machine translation in this case too, but machine translation as a placeholder for "crappy translation" is easy to understand so I tend to use that :)
2014-09-18 26159, 2014
chirlu`
The German is fine language-wise, it just doesn’t say what the English text says.
2014-09-18 26108, 2014
ianmcorvidae
heh, yup
2014-09-18 26143, 2014
LordSputnik joined the channel
2014-09-18 26123, 2014
zas
so what does Picard pick up as translation for an artist's name ? it should consider only aliases with Primary and "Artist name" type matching selected locale (or if not found, selected language) ? because it seems to me current code doesn't do that exactly, there is a hacky translate_from_sortname() too
2014-09-18 26142, 2014
kepstin-laptop
the hacky translate from sortname thing is basically a "transliterate all artist names to latin characters"
2014-09-18 26159, 2014
kepstin-laptop
which only works because our guidelines say artist sortnames should only use latin characters
2014-09-18 26107, 2014
kepstin-laptop
I think the only thing picard needs to care about is the 'primary' marker
2014-09-18 26133, 2014
kepstin-laptop
if an alias is primary for a locale, then it is the only primary alias for the locale, and it is the preferred name for that locale.
2014-09-18 26155, 2014
zas
even if it is a Legal name or Search hint ?
2014-09-18 26120, 2014
ianmcorvidae
search hints shouldn't be able to be marked primary
2014-09-18 26125, 2014
kepstin-laptop
I think the UI rejects marking those as primary
2014-09-18 26125, 2014
zas
because it is the issue in PICARD-633 (Legal name was picked, but it isn't a primary)
yep. the only thing picard should care about is whether the alias is primary or not. If the alias isn't primary, ignore it.
2014-09-18 26139, 2014
kepstin-laptop
should simplify the code a bit
2014-09-18 26119, 2014
mb-chat-logger joined the channel
2014-09-18 26106, 2014
chirlu`
After experimenting with various DB queries, I come to think the best optimization would be to give totoro more RAM, because even the slowest queries are executed in less than one second if the required data is in the cache.
btw, kepstin, sort names foir ja/ko aren't using latin
2014-09-18 26119, 2014
ianmcorvidae
when sortnames match the name they aren't shown
2014-09-18 26125, 2014
kepstin-laptop
zas: alias sort names aren't. *artist* sort names
2014-09-18 26127, 2014
ianmcorvidae
and alias sortnames can be non-latin
2014-09-18 26128, 2014
kepstin-laptop
are
2014-09-18 26128, 2014
ianmcorvidae
yeah
2014-09-18 26149, 2014
kepstin-laptop
(aside from when we don't know how a japanese name is supposed to be pronounced)
2014-09-18 26105, 2014
kepstin-laptop
(which happens more often than you'd expect :/
2014-09-18 26158, 2014
chirlu`
Well, how an English name is supposed to be pronounced is often non-obvious as well …
2014-09-18 26131, 2014
ianmcorvidae
heh
2014-09-18 26137, 2014
ianmcorvidae
time to add IPA aliases? :P
2014-09-18 26145, 2014
ianmcorvidae
(or a new column for aliases)
2014-09-18 26142, 2014
hawke
Doesn’t adding an IPA alias still require knowing how to pronounce it?
2014-09-18 26143, 2014
ianmcorvidae
presumably we should work on picard being usable at all with a screenreader before we worry too much about perfect pronunciation though ;)
2014-09-18 26104, 2014
ianmcorvidae
hawke: well, sure, but once you do you can add it and save the next person the trouble!
2014-09-18 26128, 2014
ianmcorvidae
(and no, this isn't a serious suggestion, I'm just amused at the idea of us starting to store IPA for aliases)
2014-09-18 26114, 2014
hawke
Agreed.
2014-09-18 26126, 2014
chirlu`
WP sometimes does it.
2014-09-18 26135, 2014
chirlu`
I.e. give the pronunciation of a name.
2014-09-18 26118, 2014
hawke
Yeah, but they do quite a bit of stuff with IPA don’t they?
2014-09-18 26121, 2014
ianmcorvidae
yeah, I mean -- very long term, pronunciation information would be a neat thing to store. But 'very long term' often means 'such a vanishingly small chance of ever reaching priority that we might as well ignore it'
2014-09-18 26110, 2014
hawke
It would probably be better to indirect it through something like wikidata
2014-09-18 26133, 2014
ianmcorvidae
I mean, we can do that already, probably
2014-09-18 26138, 2014
ianmcorvidae
if they store it, anyway
2014-09-18 26113, 2014
kepstin-laptop notes that by "pronunciation", he means that e.g. "真綾" could be "Maaya", "Maya", or "Marin", and the only way to know which is to have extra knowledge in addition to the name kanji :/
2014-09-18 26134, 2014
derwin
what a total fail of a letter system
2014-09-18 26145, 2014
hawke
That’s kanji for you.
2014-09-18 26145, 2014
derwin
I wonder how many more hundreds of years they will stick with it
2014-09-18 26152, 2014
kepstin-laptop
it's not a letter system, that's the problem ;)
2014-09-18 26101, 2014
derwin
yeah.
2014-09-18 26104, 2014
zas
;)
2014-09-18 26118, 2014
kepstin-laptop
my understanding is that the main reason they're sticking with it is that some people are attached to their names.
2014-09-18 26146, 2014
hawke
And more specifically, to the way their names are written?
2014-09-18 26153, 2014
kepstin-laptop
yeah, that.
2014-09-18 26111, 2014
hawke
Or are there some that can’t be written in kana?
2014-09-18 26141, 2014
kepstin-laptop
there's an entire cultural thing about picking names for children where kanji are chosen based on certain auspicious signs or whatnot
2014-09-18 26147, 2014
chirlu`
Well, “read” could be /red/ or /riːd/, and the only way to know which is to have extra knowledge from the context.
2014-09-18 26133, 2014
kepstin-laptop
hawke: all japanese names can be written in kana; you'll often find that e.g. a business card of someone with an uncommon name with have the pronunciation in kana as ruby characters
2014-09-18 26121, 2014
kepstin-laptop notes that the Ainu people might complicate this a bit
