#musicbrainz

inhouseuk: yep it is why i talk to you guys about that :) i think we share the goal of providing good info about music to the users

they're arbitrary things people have associated with other things

UserErr0r: tags on mb, like tags on last.fm, because last.fm is commercial and might die, while musicbrainz is open and will live (I think that's the general thrust of things...)

nikki_: it is a way to sort music in a efficient way. and thus helps users to find music they like. why do you think they are not a good info ?

I think the biggest problem is the subjectiveness of them.

because it's just as random as picking any other way of sorting them!

zorglu1: because they rely on having a shared meaning for a song being more "orange" or more "punk" than another song...

and musicbrainz's is a database of music, not a "find music you might like!" thing

..."That's not punk, that's rock" "that's not rock, it's jazz", "it isn't jazz, it's rnb", ...

slaad: nikki_: so ok i think i could sumup this arguement as "are they efficient in providing the music i like ?" do you agree ?

I don't understand that sentence

Nor I.

As to the question of efficiency; They're only efficient if the person who tagged them sees music in the same way.

nikki_: slaad: ok the point of a sorting system is to provide the user the relevant info

like google.com or yahoo.com ot last.fm

does not musicbrainz strive to contain hard, factual data about music, not something as soft and changeable as what 'genre' the music is?

since when was musicbrainz a way of finding new music?

they try to answer the question "gimme the stuff i want" from the user

MartinRudat: yes. hard facts, not something that is subjective

ah ok

so musicbrain want fact only ?

this is a policy of musicbrainz "we store facts only" ?

musicbrainz wants nothing. you can ask what the community wants

that would split up to a lot of answers though :)

o/` I want to rock with you o/`

that would be one of them.

i just try to understand the "accuracy" things

nikki_: "not having the time to do it now" is a valid arguement

it feels like reinventing the wheel even though you've not finishing building a cart to put the wheel on for want of a better analogy

"tagging are subjectives and doesnt work" is not

just trying to understand.

zorglu1: it's is not possible to be accurate and difinitive on matters of opinion... such as genre, or tags.

Sure it is, zorglu1. If tags are subjective, as they are, it means they're irrelevant.

if the "tagging are subjectives and doesnt work" is the problem, i can explain why it is not

...which is why psychology has such a hard time being accepted as hard science, afaik...

zorglu1: the problem is, you might classify a certain song as something different to somebody else.

inhouseuk: ok this is the "tagging are subjectives and doesnt work"

everybody has different opinions

yeah, I can just see some people tagging anything from japan as jpop

inhouseuk: i understand that.

then I'll go looking for jpop and find metal!

and it is difficult to store subjective data

nikki_: this is the "tagging are subjectives and doesnt work" argument

You can't just say "it doesn't work"

your argument doesn't work either :P

(The argument, I mean)

:)

can i ask questions ?

you just did :P

No! Hah!

I'm fairly certain it goes more along the lines of "Subjectivity involves opinion, and there's enough heated discussion about hard fact as it is..."

is this 'only accurate data' a strict policy of musicbrainz ?

no, but the aim is to be accurate where possible

ok

and you can't be accurate about subjective data

nikki_: yep

You can, you just have to have everyone agree that I'm right ;)

inhouseuk: so this accuracy policy wont be applied to a sorting system.

as any sorting system is subjective and no accuracy are possible

why do we need a "sorting system"?

zorglu1: to me it's a matter of the size of the community. a community can only handle a certain amount of features. after that you have organisation problems. so if you want to add tags to MB this opens a whole new region and I don't think we can handle that. therefore I'm for letting last.fm handle this. MB cannot handle everything around music

Shepard: ok this is the "we dont have time/resource to do it"

this one is valid :)

not quite

to me, the mb community is already about facts, and we like facts and guidelines and all that

and last.fm is all about the subjective stuff, and they seem happy enough with that

nikki_: there are no 'style' in mb ?

?

Shepard: did i misrepresent your idea ?

nikki_: did i misundertood what was a 'style moderator' ?

is a 'style moderator' somebody who say 'this is rock' or 'this is funk' etcc. ?

it's not a matter of resources. neither of time. we can add more servers, the community will grow anyways if we add tags so we would have the human resources. but the community would brake up into lots of different groups handling the different aspects and it would be impossible to keep an overview of all that

and style in musicbrainz usually refers to how to enter data

Chris is a style moderator specializing in Electronic style issues. <- http://musicbrainz.org/wd/MusicBrainzBio

not genres

Does MB have any fulltime staff?

Shepard: hmm so it is more to remain focus on a single aspect of it and not to dillute the effort. 'do one thing but do it well' kind of thing ?

yes

slaad: no paid workers but ruaok

Yeah, I meant other than ruaok

nope

zorglu1: the 'style' work the musicbrainz community does is to apply certain guidelines to the data, otherwise you get the mess that is freedb

inhouseuk: yep i read a bit about the style concil

ok thanks the info guys

i just wanted to know how musicbrainz felts about a tagging system

the argument 'do one thing but do it well' is very valid

in my opinion

hmm... do we cover a sufficient cross-section of "MusicBrainz" to actually say that we've divined the opinion of the community as a whole?

probably not. But, I'm certain the majority of the community would agree that tags/genres are subjective :)

tags/genre/styles ? :)

.oO( all the same... )

martin: e)

MartinRudat: you forgot the answer "What are tags?"

grml.

?

I managed to do that ctrl-s thing in just one screen window

so I could switch windows but not type in this one

but it seems that if you hammer ctrl-a-q enough, it'll give you it back

inhouseuk: I think "tag! you're it" would be appropriate, too. =)

nikki: ircII? screen?

you could unmap c-s and so eliminate the threat of ever jamming your terminal again ;)

irssi

well normally I just hit ctrl-q

but nooo, it had to be ctrl-a-q

on solaris you used to be able to message a ctrl-s to another user and it would lock their screen

chorus and orchestra could have been recorded at different times/locations and then combined in the mix

hmm... John Hugh Thomas is listed as chorus master in the prose... I love consistancy...

"Con stantly using this health torch, it can benefit to your palm, arm and shoulder stretching and blood circulation,so as to let your hands relax and brain clever, hand and brain coor dinate and promote your brain memory and health composition"

that is the wording on the packet of the torch I purchased at the computer fair earlier today!

o_O

...is the torch heavier than the average torch, or something?

it's one of these torches you squeeze to recharge it

no batteries

ah, I've got one of those... it could do with a capacitor, and a regulator... not to mention something more efficient than an incandescent globe...

this one has 3 white LED's

http://www.engrish.com/ it's quite interesting what inexpert translation ends up with...

Shof is now known as shof515

i haev a question

have*

ja, what is it?

...Artist page for Ludwin van Beethoven... up to a meg of data already... I shouldn't be surprised, should I?

s/in/ig/;

nope

ah, it finished loading.

there are some worse than Beethoven

...the Grateful Dead have more releases than any of the classical artists? wow.

I'm mildly surprised that anyone has had more releases than the classical composers, actually...