Question then luks: For performance names and legal names (and whatever other ARs/artists might cause the same person/group to be listed in the database multiple times), when they map to NGS, what impact would it have having them exist in that way, with proper ARs, vs having them all merged back together without those separate artists or ARs?
2007-06-24 17537, 2007
luks
the problem is that we have two kind of aliases
2007-06-24 17518, 2007
lauri
brianfreud: pretend i am a performer (just go with me)
2007-06-24 17524, 2007
lauri
i have one name, on my birth certificate
2007-06-24 17532, 2007
lauri
I have another, anglicised, on my english language birth certificate
2007-06-24 17550, 2007
lauri
i had my name changed when i was 5, when my mother married, by deed poll, to include my stepfather's name
2007-06-24 17558, 2007
lauri
i have been married, and divorced
2007-06-24 17512, 2007
lauri
i have a combination of the above, on my passport from NZ, and a different one on my passport from Sweden
2007-06-24 17524, 2007
lauri
they are _all_ names i'm entirely legally allowed to use, at least in NZ :)
2007-06-24 17529, 2007
lauri
which one would you link my AR's to?
2007-06-24 17537, 2007
Cord
(then you can't travel to US )
2007-06-24 17543, 2007
BrianFreud
well, first, are you doing anything musical to be listed anyhow? ;)
2007-06-24 17502, 2007
BrianFreud
seriously though
2007-06-24 17505, 2007
lauri
assume i did :)
2007-06-24 17507, 2007
yllona
hang on brian. it's agood example.
2007-06-24 17515, 2007
lauri
should I not, because my names are too complicated?
2007-06-24 17519, 2007
BrianFreud
Ok, but here's the difference
2007-06-24 17527, 2007
lauri
(it's not even contrived, it's my real situation :)
2007-06-24 17527, 2007
yllona thinks of a performer with similar complexity
2007-06-24 17534, 2007
lauri
terence trent d'arby
2007-06-24 17538, 2007
BrianFreud
Are you performing as any of those names?
2007-06-24 17544, 2007
lauri
is not his real birth name, the name he grew up under, or his current legal name
2007-06-24 17555, 2007
yllona
yes, carlos santana, john mclughlin, alice coltrane
2007-06-24 17556, 2007
lauri
so he's got at least 4, all reasonably legal
2007-06-24 17500, 2007
BrianFreud
ok
2007-06-24 17516, 2007
yllona
cat stevens
2007-06-24 17520, 2007
BrianFreud
So let's say your current legal name is "Jane Doe Smithson"
2007-06-24 17532, 2007
lauri
which one gets the AR's? (cos nobody's looking him up under sainanda maitreya to enter a 1980's compilation album)
2007-06-24 17544, 2007
BrianFreud
And growing up you performed as "Mary Jane Clemson"
2007-06-24 17547, 2007
yllona
anyone who did that muslim/buddhist/hindi name change thing in the 60s or 70s
2007-06-24 17557, 2007
lauri
and then went back in the 80's :)
2007-06-24 17509, 2007
BrianFreud
and currently you perform as "Jane" (no last name, nor are you well known as anything other than "Jane")
2007-06-24 17518, 2007
yllona
lauri: yes!
2007-06-24 17544, 2007
lauri
which one is legal? under the current guideline wording, and proposals to change it, 'birth name' got tossed around... but lots of people change those
2007-06-24 17557, 2007
BrianFreud
Why not have your legal name exist, with the performs as ARs to the 2 performance names, as indicated by the guidelines?
2007-06-24 17508, 2007
lauri
but which one of mine is my legal name?
2007-06-24 17515, 2007
yllona
let's use alice coltrane as an example. because she'll have the spouse & children AR's to boot
2007-06-24 17521, 2007
lauri
i mean, i have two passports with different names on :)
2007-06-24 17524, 2007
lauri
both quite legally
2007-06-24 17536, 2007
BrianFreud
lauri: I'm sure, were you say to be summonsed to court, there would be a singular legal name they would address the summons to?
2007-06-24 17550, 2007
lauri
they'd pick one, sure
2007-06-24 17553, 2007
BrianFreud
which?
2007-06-24 17555, 2007
lauri
but that doesn't make it my only legal name
2007-06-24 17558, 2007
luks
aren't you forgetting that MB is about artists, not people in general?
2007-06-24 17501, 2007
lauri
if it's a traffic summons, it'd be the one on my car title
2007-06-24 17502, 2007
BrianFreud
no
2007-06-24 17507, 2007
lauri
if it was about immigration, it'd be the one on my passport
2007-06-24 17520, 2007
lauri
if it was cos i didn't pay property tax, it'd be the one on my house deed, i expect
2007-06-24 17533, 2007
yllona
alice coltrane performed as alice macleod, before marrying john coltrane
2007-06-24 17536, 2007
BrianFreud
luks: currently, the guidelines specify that legal names ought to be created and used for all the non-musical info, ARs, birth/death dates, etc.
2007-06-24 17553, 2007
lauri
if it was to testify or be a juror, it'd be probably a common name that isn't exactly any of the above
2007-06-24 17556, 2007
BrianFreud
with a "performs as " AR then linked to the, well, performance name used
2007-06-24 17509, 2007
luks
BrianFreud: I don't think there is such guideline
2007-06-24 17517, 2007
BrianFreud
lol, I can quote them
2007-06-24 17521, 2007
luks
the only one is that you shouldn't link two performance names with "performs as"
2007-06-24 17527, 2007
lauri
luks: there is, but it's very ambiguously worded, and was written before AR's really were put into practise
2007-06-24 17540, 2007
lauri
and it's never been rewritten, although we've discussed it plenty
2007-06-24 17541, 2007
yllona
mcleod is her birth name. after john coltrane's death she founded an ashram, changed her name to "By the late 1970s she had changed her name to Turiyasangitananda."
2007-06-24 17555, 2007
luks
I don't think there is anything about birth/death dates or non-musical info
2007-06-24 17558, 2007
lauri
oh yeah, i would totally look her up under that one
2007-06-24 17505, 2007
BrianFreud
performance names."
2007-06-24 17526, 2007
lauri
i would really like to check back wiki history and see who put that, and when, now that i think about it
2007-06-24 17535, 2007
BrianFreud
and following that, there's a guideline on how to determine what legal name to use.
2007-06-24 17500, 2007
yllona
she recorded and performed as "Turiyasangitananda" -- i have the albums
2007-06-24 17500, 2007
BrianFreud
My point is, these merges may make sense. But they ignore the guidelines, and noone's brought it up on the style list, nor has anyone drafted an RFC.
2007-06-24 17506, 2007
lauri
and that one, has been under heavy ongoing discussion on the mailing lists for ages, because of ... people like me, terence, cat stevens, yllona's very good example there
2007-06-24 17514, 2007
luks
BrianFreud: where is that?
2007-06-24 17516, 2007
lauri
we HAVE bought it up on the mailing lists
2007-06-24 17518, 2007
yllona
on occasion alice would still perform as alice coltrane
just obliquely, we were first trying to nail down the whole legal name thing, because those guidelines are all predicated on figuring out wtf a legal name is (which is just impossible)
2007-06-24 17507, 2007
BrianFreud
What's wrong with the definition in the wiki? "The birth certificate is the usual place you will find a legal name. However, legal names can be changed at any time (eg by marriage, deed poll etc)."
2007-06-24 17523, 2007
lauri
what's wrong is, read the last ten minutes
2007-06-24 17533, 2007
BrianFreud
ok, then let me ask
2007-06-24 17546, 2007
lauri
that might give you one possible legal name, at one particular point in someone's life
2007-06-24 17547, 2007
BrianFreud
with all the ambiguity, and knowing that "legal name" is a currently debated concept
2007-06-24 17552, 2007
lauri
which just isn't how the world works
2007-06-24 17554, 2007
BrianFreud
aren't these merges premature?
2007-06-24 17527, 2007
lauri
did you see me vote yes on them?
2007-06-24 17541, 2007
lauri
nooo, you didn't, although i'm sure you assume i did
2007-06-24 17553, 2007
lauri
cos guess what: I prefer to nail down the style guidelines first
2007-06-24 17520, 2007
yllona sends a virtual cocktail to lauri & a glass of chamomille tea to BrianFreud
2007-06-24 17522, 2007
lauri
but: Wille crafoord (the example I gave) - not using all his middle names, doesn't make Wille Crafoord a performance name, it is, by all accounts, including asking him
2007-06-24 17527, 2007
lauri
his real legal name
2007-06-24 17528, 2007
BrianFreud
Lauri: no, you didn't.. but you expressed an opinion: krazykiwi: 2007-06-22 10:51:12 EDT I so dearly want to vote yes on this, but I don't know if my gmail account can handle it, with only about 2Gb spare.
2007-06-24 17549, 2007
lauri
note to self: do not comment on edits in future, it's not allowed
2007-06-24 17559, 2007
BrianFreud
did I say that?
2007-06-24 17508, 2007
lauri
you seem to like to put words in my mouth
2007-06-24 17513, 2007
BrianFreud
what words?
2007-06-24 17535, 2007
lauri
oh your emails are full of assumptions what i'm about, all utterly wrong
2007-06-24 17537, 2007
BrianFreud
correct, you didn't vote. you said you wanted to vote yes
2007-06-24 17543, 2007
yllona walks away from this spat. life is too short :P
2007-06-24 17543, 2007
BrianFreud
what emails?
2007-06-24 17552, 2007
BrianFreud
I've not made any assumption about you.
2007-06-24 17558, 2007
lauri
i did find it cute you quoting back at me my refrain of 'let's do it properly by RFC, not just ignore guidelines we don't like'
2007-06-24 17502, 2007
lauri
very funny
2007-06-24 17508, 2007
lauri
i'm with yllona
2007-06-24 17517, 2007
lauri
I think you just like to pick fights, and dislike being challenged
2007-06-24 17520, 2007
BrianFreud
lauri: You seem to think I have some grudge against you.
2007-06-24 17513, 2007
lauri
so lukz: anyway, there was a point to all this: is it worth me rfc'ing a modification to that guideline, to modify the language to something softer (in rfc terms: a MAY, not a MUST, i think would defuse it pretty well)
2007-06-24 17532, 2007
BrianFreud
I suggested that perhaps a certain type of edit was bad. I take advice and no's all the time in good favor, often agreeing. You and I disagre on this. Just because I disagree with you, I always dislike being challenged, and I like to pick fights?
2007-06-24 17535, 2007
lauri
or should we wait until NGS, and aim for something like the IMDB's unified 'one person, one page' discography display
2007-06-24 17539, 2007
luks
can't say anything right now
2007-06-24 17502, 2007
luks
because as soon as I see huge emails I simple skip them
2007-06-24 17507, 2007
BrianFreud
lol
2007-06-24 17507, 2007
luks
so I guess I need to read mb-users first
2007-06-24 17514, 2007
lauri
nah, you already got most of it
2007-06-24 17531, 2007
luks
but 'one person, one page' seems very wrong to me
2007-06-24 17539, 2007
lauri
why?
2007-06-24 17544, 2007
luks
it should be 'one recording artist, one page'
2007-06-24 17557, 2007
lauri
ok, but that artist, under any name
2007-06-24 17558, 2007
luks
afx and aphex twins are two different recording artists
2007-06-24 17505, 2007
luks
-s
2007-06-24 17508, 2007
lauri
no, they aren't :)
2007-06-24 17513, 2007
luks
yes, they are
2007-06-24 17523, 2007
lauri
lol, ok
2007-06-24 17524, 2007
luks
they even play different style of musi
2007-06-24 17524, 2007
BrianFreud
luks: but then how would you link them, without also a legalname artist? who is the performance name for who?
2007-06-24 17526, 2007
luks
c
2007-06-24 17536, 2007
lauri
i know they do
2007-06-24 17544, 2007
luks
BrianFreud: I wouldn't
2007-06-24 17555, 2007
lauri
but they're still one person, and each release would have the appropriate credits on it
2007-06-24 17501, 2007
BrianFreud
there we agree
2007-06-24 17505, 2007
luks
the only way I can think if is the discogs way, which is extremly stupid
2007-06-24 17523, 2007
BrianFreud isn't sure how discogs does it
2007-06-24 17524, 2007
lauri
luks: how about
2007-06-24 17528, 2007
lauri
Richard James
2007-06-24 17537, 2007
lauri
.... as AFX (tree of those releases)
2007-06-24 17541, 2007
luks
BrianFreud: link each everything to everything
2007-06-24 17544, 2007
lauri
.... as Aphex Twin (tree of those releases)
2007-06-24 17546, 2007
luks
er, -each
2007-06-24 17559, 2007
lauri
... as Any other name he comes up with
2007-06-24 17507, 2007
BrianFreud
luks: ie, relationshipcluster it all and ignore that there's a simpler way to do it :)
2007-06-24 17514, 2007
lauri
.... is also known as (any other aliases he's used for production, remixing, etc, I know there are some)
2007-06-24 17517, 2007
luks
yes
2007-06-24 17535, 2007
BrianFreud
lauri: that's exactly how we do it now
2007-06-24 17500, 2007
BrianFreud
AFX <---performs as--- Richard James ---performs as---> Aphex Twin
