if the official name of the band/artist/group is 'The' something the 'the' will always be capitalized. if it is always lowercase and sometimes isnt included at all the band/group/artist name does not include 'the'
You sent it as a statement... the point of which isn't clear. Are you proposing a new guideline?
2009-06-07 15802, 2009
brianfreud
Request for Change
2009-06-07 15808, 2009
alastairp
right :)
2009-06-07 15813, 2009
lancerocke
hmmm
2009-06-07 15814, 2009
brianfreud
(or Comments) ;)
2009-06-07 15816, 2009
lancerocke
i guess so
2009-06-07 15828, 2009
lancerocke
requesting a new guideline
2009-06-07 15834, 2009
brianfreud
Well, whether or not "The" (or A, etc) is used, I think, will be made easier to allow for both when NGS goes live, and we have Artist Credits.
2009-06-07 15804, 2009
lancerocke
guess i have to read up on what NGS is
2009-06-07 15824, 2009
lancerocke
i mean i just want the proper name to be represented for reference
2009-06-07 15835, 2009
brianfreud
But as for the "most correct" artist name (not variations on it), I think that's best decided on a case by case basis, not some overriding rule that arbitrarily says we shouldn't use "the", even if the bands' name should include it.
2009-06-07 15848, 2009
lancerocke
if i wanna know if the bands name includes 'the' i wanna be able to find out on musicbrainz
2009-06-07 15850, 2009
lancerocke
but i cant
2009-06-07 15853, 2009
lancerocke
like EVER
2009-06-07 15836, 2009
brianfreud
your definition of "official documentation" also isn't all that helpful; you'll have tens of thousands of bands from the pre-internet era where there isn't any documentation, apart from liners, from which to determine if The should be used.
2009-06-07 15804, 2009
lancerocke
the the liners would have to be it
2009-06-07 15812, 2009
lancerocke
newspaper articles
2009-06-07 15824, 2009
lancerocke
anything
2009-06-07 15830, 2009
brianfreud
artist/band/group's album covers:"
2009-06-07 15858, 2009
brianfreud
I just think this guideline sets itself up to make things just more confusing, without actually definitely solving the problem.
2009-06-07 15802, 2009
lancerocke
yeah the front cover sometimes includes the when the liner doesnt
2009-06-07 15820, 2009
lancerocke
the front cover for whether or not 'the' should be included should never be used
yes, but that's why I suggest it should be left to the editors on a case by case basis, rather than trying to draw a line saying "only these types of documentation count, but these others, like front covers, don't count"
2009-06-07 15811, 2009
lancerocke
it was so hard for me to get 'jackson 5' changed to the proper name
2009-06-07 15855, 2009
lancerocke
brianfreud: that reminds me of what i call 'the prince rule'
It was "decided" by expiration, with only one comment and 3 abstains...
2009-06-07 15811, 2009
lancerocke
honestly its just fact
2009-06-07 15817, 2009
lancerocke
i dunno what to say about that example
2009-06-07 15825, 2009
lancerocke
its jackson 5
2009-06-07 15832, 2009
lancerocke
lol im sorry i cant discuss that more
2009-06-07 15826, 2009
lancerocke
one example that can be debated is 'smashing pumpkins' that one isnt solid
2009-06-07 15850, 2009
lancerocke
i mean thats y i proposed the rule i guess
2009-06-07 15805, 2009
lancerocke
i just want musicbrainz to be better as i really like the site
2009-06-07 15819, 2009
lancerocke
im tired of seeing spanish and french tracklistings being butchered
2009-06-07 15828, 2009
lancerocke
4 letter preopsitions being uppercase
2009-06-07 15841, 2009
lancerocke
and 'the' being included where it shouldnt
2009-06-07 15817, 2009
brianfreud
Well, I just think "Only when the 'the' is always included and capitalized should we include 'the' in the artist name." is overly restrictive, esp given that you're indicating to specifically ignore some documentation.
2009-06-07 15828, 2009
lancerocke
i wanna be able to go to musicbrainz to find out whats really what when im tagging an album
2009-06-07 15849, 2009
brianfreud
As for 4 letter prepositions, I've played with GC in 4-letter preposition mode, 5-letter, etc - and the resulting camelcase mess seriously sucks.
2009-06-07 15815, 2009
lancerocke
GC?
2009-06-07 15840, 2009
brianfreud
you're proposing changing all 4-letter ones, but only specifying "from" and "with" - the full 4-letter list makes a serious mess of uppercase/lowercase: amid, anti, atop, down, from, into, like, near, next, onto, over, past, plus, sans, save, than, till, unto, upon, with
2009-06-07 15842, 2009
brianfreud
guess case
2009-06-07 15844, 2009
lancerocke
i sorry i dont know the lingo
2009-06-07 15854, 2009
lancerocke
i'm*
2009-06-07 15810, 2009
lancerocke
yeah guess case never works
2009-06-07 15816, 2009
lancerocke
u know what?
2009-06-07 15824, 2009
lancerocke
im not going to sugarcoat this...
2009-06-07 15850, 2009
lancerocke
i want to say im a fan of MB ;) but for caps RYM is the place to go
2009-06-07 15800, 2009
lancerocke
its just the truth
2009-06-07 15807, 2009
lancerocke
they are right 90% of the time
2009-06-07 15817, 2009
brianfreud
there is no "right" capitalization.
2009-06-07 15858, 2009
lancerocke
not sure what u mean by that but they go by artist intent first then refer to the proper rules
2009-06-07 15809, 2009
lancerocke
such as rules for spanish caps
2009-06-07 15836, 2009
lancerocke
they hardly ever let me down for caps
2009-06-07 15800, 2009
lancerocke
MB is great and i use it as an authority sometimes
2009-06-07 15807, 2009
lancerocke
just RYM is better for caps
2009-06-07 15844, 2009
brianfreud
We have capitalization standards for various languages. They are not always correctly done, however, by editors.
2009-06-07 15854, 2009
lancerocke
true
2009-06-07 15808, 2009
brianfreud
But for English, there is no such thing as "correct" camelcase capitalization.
2009-06-07 15816, 2009
lancerocke
french is ok 50% of the time i find on MB
2009-06-07 15819, 2009
brianfreud
sorry, I mean title case, not camelcase.
2009-06-07 15828, 2009
lancerocke
spanish is something like wrong 80% of the time
2009-06-07 15846, 2009
brianfreud
More French editors cleaning things up than Spanish editors doing it, tbh :)
2009-06-07 15850, 2009
nikki
what's your preferred capitalisation for spanish?
2009-06-07 15808, 2009
lancerocke
only first word caps
2009-06-07 15816, 2009
lancerocke
unless its the name of place or person
2009-06-07 15830, 2009
nikki
we have a guideline that says to do that
2009-06-07 15850, 2009
lancerocke
nikki: its hardly ever used
2009-06-07 15852, 2009
lancerocke
lol
2009-06-07 15800, 2009
nikki
well, we have a *page* that says that, I'm not sure if we made it official
2009-06-07 15802, 2009
nikki
I know :/
2009-06-07 15818, 2009
lancerocke
whats with 'from' and 'with' anyways
2009-06-07 15825, 2009
lancerocke
y wont we lowercase them
2009-06-07 15835, 2009
lancerocke
they should be
2009-06-07 15801, 2009
nikki
we don't really have a lot of spanish editors, so most of the people editing spanish stuff are people used to english style :/
2009-06-07 15804, 2009
lancerocke
also needs to be a rule for '...of' or '...a'
2009-06-07 15807, 2009
brianfreud
because the English capitalization standard says they should be capitalized. (Or rather, doesn't include them on the list of words that shpould be lowercased).
2009-06-07 15808, 2009
lancerocke
...the
2009-06-07 15828, 2009
lancerocke
unless its artist intent like ...And you will know us by the trail of the dead
2009-06-07 15829, 2009
brianfreud
* (b) Coordinate conjunctions: and, but, or, nor ?
yes, these are the capitalization standards for tracks too
2009-06-07 15810, 2009
nikki
I have an email in my inbox about making the spanish one official or something like that, but I've still not got round to doing anything about it
2009-06-07 15839, 2009
brianfreud
partially, cause we have a lot fewer Spanish autoeditors than French or some other languages, for whatever reason... Now if you felt like adopting that proposal lancerocke, and getting Capitalization_Standard_Spanish made official, that would be helpful :)
2009-06-07 15801, 2009
lancerocke
well i think ive vented enough and appreciate u guy hearing me out and commenting. im gonna take a shower ow so be back soon
2009-06-07 15809, 2009
brianfreud
nikki: iirc, it's spanish, turkish, yiddish, and vietnamese that are still proposals, not official, but don't quote me :)
