hmm. maybe I'll make redoing the ARs on ROUND TABLE featuring Nino my project for tomorrow.
2010-12-01 33523, 2010
kepstin
drop all the round table members, and turn it into a collaboration artist with round table + nino
2010-12-01 33503, 2010
nikki
makes sense
2010-12-01 33553, 2010
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2010-12-01 33539, 2010
kepstin
hmm. I've been seeing a "Sound Produced" credit a lot lately
2010-12-01 33505, 2010
kepstin
appears to be distinct from just "Producer" :/
2010-12-01 33533, 2010
kepstin
and "Director", "Vocal Director" as well
2010-12-01 33540, 2010
nikki
I've seen sound producer quite a lot
2010-12-01 33546, 2010
nikki
I just skip over it ¬_¬
2010-12-01 33522, 2010
nikki
hm. I never did work out how turn these rtf files into html. it turns out it's some bizarre encoding
2010-12-01 33526, 2010
kepstin
on the anime-related singles, the 'sound producer' is often more relevant to the music than the 'producer'
2010-12-01 33535, 2010
kepstin
you'll get an executive producer who is someone high up in the company, a producer who is actually the anime producer and is just supervising the music, and the sound producer who actually produced... the sound.
2010-12-01 33544, 2010
kepstin
the 'Director'/'Directed by' credit is the one that I'm really not sure how to fit into musicbrainz
2010-12-01 33505, 2010
kepstin
'Provided creative direction for' doesn't quite seem right :)
2010-12-01 33508, 2010
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2010-12-01 33537, 2010
kepstin
btw, nikki, do you ever sleep?
2010-12-01 33545, 2010
nikki
hehehe
2010-12-01 33524, 2010
nikki
rumour has it that I don't :P
2010-12-01 33501, 2010
kepstin
It is depressingly grey and rainy here for a Canadian winter. It's supposed to be white and snowy. Why isn't it white and snowy...
2010-12-01 33512, 2010
kepstin heads off
2010-12-01 33519, 2010
nikki
it's dark here
2010-12-01 33527, 2010
nikki
but there was still the snow from the other day
2010-12-01 33532, 2010
herojoker
here too
2010-12-01 33550, 2010
kepstin
we had some snow, but the rain came and washed it all away...
2010-12-01 33504, 2010
kepstin
it's freakin' 10°C here now
2010-12-01 33507, 2010
nikki
aww
2010-12-01 33514, 2010
nikki wonders where herojoker actually is
2010-12-01 33524, 2010
herojoker
germany ^^
2010-12-01 33545, 2010
nikki
I knew that much! :P
2010-12-01 33511, 2010
nikki
germany's big though! (well, maybe not to kepstin, but to me)
2010-12-01 33527, 2010
kepstin
Germany's tiny!
2010-12-01 33550, 2010
hawke_
Germany’s of a medium size. :-p
2010-12-01 33507, 2010
nikki
still got more people than canada :P
2010-12-01 33528, 2010
kepstin
Canada's just absolutely massive. If you want to drive from one end to the other, you set aside a week for the trip, then another week for the trip back...
2010-12-01 33541, 2010
nikki
hehe...
2010-12-01 33552, 2010
nikki
and I can get back to my mum's in half a day
2010-12-01 33534, 2010
nikki
well, more like a full day... the trains don't go overnight
2010-12-01 33522, 2010
kepstin has been to Germany once, but that was when he was quite a bit younger.
2010-12-01 33533, 2010
nikki
where did you go?
2010-12-01 33543, 2010
kepstin
Was a bus tour around the country
2010-12-01 33546, 2010
nikki
ahh
2010-12-01 33510, 2010
nikki
I want to go to every capital in europe, but I wonder what I should count as "going to"
2010-12-01 33548, 2010
nikki
although I suppose I should visit more before I worry about that... right now even with my most liberal definition of "going to", I've only been to 5
“lyrics were written by aurelius prudentius” seems wrong, because it likely wouldn’t be sung that way on a recording.
2010-12-01 33551, 2010
kepstin
we have a translated lyrics AR now :)
2010-12-01 33520, 2010
hawke_
I know, but is it "lyrics by aurelius", translated lyrics by [whichever artist]?
2010-12-01 33533, 2010
kepstin
yeah, that sounds about right.
2010-12-01 33550, 2010
hawke_
basically, would a "lyrics by" be appropriate when the song doesn't actually contain those lyrics
2010-12-01 33553, 2010
hawke_
?
2010-12-01 33510, 2010
kepstin
well, the song contains a translation of those lyrics, right?
2010-12-01 33537, 2010
kepstin
so the... original spirit of the lyric writer got passed on :)
2010-12-01 33532, 2010
kepstin is currently slightly short on sleep, leading to overly wordy and not particularly coherent sentences - off to rectify the situation!
2010-12-01 33532, 2010
kepstin
but yeah, for that I'd say lyrics by Aurelius Prudentius, translated lyrics by Foby Furley Davis (or whomever)
2010-12-01 33530, 2010
hawke_
OK. And the tune…anonymous? Unknown? Traditional?
2010-12-01 33538, 2010
hawke_
published in 1582, but almost certainly not written then.
2010-12-01 33553, 2010
hawke_
I suppose that would be best as anonymous.
2010-12-01 33530, 2010
hawke_
God damn it, who decided that the year 348 is invalid‽
2010-12-01 33526, 2010
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2010-12-01 33547, 2010
ocharles
Could someone give me a "bad" archive.org url? One that would be changed by the url editing javascript
2010-12-01 33511, 2010
ocharles
hawke_: it isn't in ngs :)
2010-12-01 33522, 2010
ocharles
-300 is valid then!
2010-12-01 33509, 2010
hawke_
ocharles: Good.
2010-12-01 33536, 2010
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hawke_
Hrm…What about the fact that the composed tune has a name separate from the track? So it’s not really correct to say “[anonymous] composed ‘Of Thy Father’s Love Begotten’” since the tune is called either “De Eucharistia” or “Divinum Mysterium”. Presumably something to be left for NGS, but I’m not even sure that NGS handles it properly.
2010-12-01 33559, 2010
hawke_
is there a [work] takes its tune from [work] AR, in NGS?
2010-12-01 33525, 2010
caller_6
hawke: yeah, I've been wondering about the use of "composed by" for anon/trad melodies... it seems to /formal/. Maybe a "melody based on" track-track AR is in order?
2010-12-01 33544, 2010
hawke_
caller_6: Perhaps, though track-track wouldn’t work here.
2010-12-01 33513, 2010
caller_6
well, right, work-work eventually.
2010-12-01 33514, 2010
hawke_
It’d have to be work-work or work-track, I think, and thus only doable with NGS.
2010-12-01 33538, 2010
hawke_
Just because there is no specific recording which represents the tune.
2010-12-01 33542, 2010
caller_6
"composed" doesn't seem /fuzzy/ enough for some things.
2010-12-01 33503, 2010
hawke_
No?
2010-12-01 33507, 2010
hawke_
I think composed is fine.
2010-12-01 33512, 2010
hawke_
For this anyway.
2010-12-01 33503, 2010
caller_6
as usual, I was thinking while typing (should do the thinking first). What I meant was, maybe a "melody" AR could replace "composed by" in cases like this.
2010-12-01 33541, 2010
hawke_
Ah.
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nikki
ocharles: does it do anything other than remove http?
2010-12-01 33534, 2010
nikki
hawke_: there aren't really any new relationships in ngs, other than the one to link recordings to works
2010-12-01 33510, 2010
nikki
hawke_: but feel free to start drafting some you think would be useful
2010-12-01 33520, 2010
hawke_
nikki: So there are no work-work ARs in the works yet?
hawke_: "...or other dash as it appears on the release" - I doubt most people could actually ID the difference. Plus, that would mean that artistic design decisions on typography end up overriding grammatical correctness. I'd much rather it be "...or other dash as is grammatically correct" or something like that.
2010-12-01 33547, 2010
brianfreud
Also, I've been busy, so haven't followed the debate very closely. This, though, doesn't make much sense to me, as someone who hasn't read that thread in detail. "There are certain “generic” characters and combinations which are no longer in the preferred style."
2010-12-01 33541, 2010
brianfreud
Last comment, I promise. :) Something not in here, but maybe that should be, would be "number" styles.
2010-12-01 33509, 2010
brianfreud
ie, "No." vs "Nr.", "#", "Number", "N°, "№", "n.", etc.
2010-12-01 33555, 2010
brianfreud
Oh, I lied. (Just looking over my notes for this stuff from CSGv2). Two other "punctuation" marks maybe worth a mention: 1) "º" (masculine ordinal) vs "°" (degree) , and
2010-12-01 33558, 2010
brianfreud
2) Unicode compatibility characters - ie, not using them: "I" "II", etc., not Unicode Roman numbers / Angstrom (Å U+212B: use U+00C5 instead), Ohm (Ω, U+2126: use U+03A9 instead), Kelvin (K U+212A: use U+004B instead) Fahrenheit (℉ U+2109: use U+00B0 and U+0046 instead), Celsius (℃ U+2103: use U+00B0 and U+0043 instead), Micro Sign (µ U+00B5: use U+03BC instead, etc)
2010-12-01 33557, 2010
caller_6
At what point (sorry to even ask) does "This page is for small guidelines that don't need their own wiki page." stop applying? It seems like this is growing into its own subject. Typographical Standard English, or whatever.
2010-12-01 33544, 2010
brianfreud
true, it does now seem more like "Typography Style Guideline" rather than "Misc Guidelines"
2010-12-01 33552, 2010
caller_6
Which is great. I'd think removing the prohibitions contained in "misc" and using the work Hawke is doing as the basis for a TSG (!) makes more sense in terms of structuring the documentation.
2010-12-01 33515, 2010
hawke_
caller_6: That seems like a decent idea to me
2010-12-01 33520, 2010
hawke_
brianfreud: for the “other dashes”, I mostly wanted to make it clear that it’s not an exhaustive list of all possible dash and similar characters.
2010-12-01 33507, 2010
brianfreud
sure, but I don't think that current language says anything towards that. It reads like it's talking about "what's on the liner", not "or other appropriate dash type"
2010-12-01 33547, 2010
hawke_
brianfreud: Ah, so you’re saying “get rid of ‘…as it appears on the release.’”
2010-12-01 33505, 2010
brianfreud
yeah - that just introduces that who "what's on the liner" concept
2010-12-01 33505, 2010
caller_6
about dashes, I read it that way too. It sounds like the presentational concerns over-ride the semantic role.
2010-12-01 33521, 2010
hawke_
brianfreud: OK, removed. That was another vestige of my bias towards following the cover art.
2010-12-01 33517, 2010
brianfreud
:P
2010-12-01 33551, 2010
hawke_
As I said on the list, I hate how you can’t call ArtistIntent without documents signed in triplicate from the artist saying that they want it that way.
2010-12-01 33559, 2010
hawke_
But anyway.
2010-12-01 33521, 2010
brianfreud
if there's actually some AI reason, I don't have an issue with it. But esp when it comes to the specific type of dash, that maybe is the 1 in a million case - and that lang would just lead to people trying to interpret AI into "graphic designer decisions"
2010-12-01 33500, 2010
hawke_
Nod, totally right.
2010-12-01 33530, 2010
hawke_
Regarding number (ordinal vs. degree) and other special characters, that’s outside the scope of this proposal which is just to reverse the current misc. guideline on the specific "generic" characters listed
2010-12-01 33553, 2010
brianfreud
TBH, though, I think all the focus on mentioning types of punctuation is the wrong directions.
2010-12-01 33501, 2010
brianfreud
I'd simplify it down to 4 sentences:
2010-12-01 33518, 2010
hawke_
You may well be right. Do tell.
2010-12-01 33555, 2010
brianfreud
"ASCII punctuation characters are ok, but grammatically correct typography is preferred. Do not use [[WikiPedia:Unicode_compatibility_characters|Unicode compatibility characters]]; use the decomposed characters instead. Use standard, not wide, Unicode characters. [[WikiPedia:Precomposed_character|Decomposed Unicode characters]] are preferred over [[WikiPedia:Precomposed_character|precomposed Unicode chara
2010-12-01 33556, 2010
brianfreud
cters]]."
2010-12-01 33508, 2010
brianfreud
(Not sure about that last one actually being our preference)
2010-12-01 33501, 2010
hawke_
Hmm.
2010-12-01 33500, 2010
hawke_
The whole precomposed/decomposed thing seems overly complicated and really outside the scope of this.
2010-12-01 33540, 2010
brianfreud
that last sentence perhaps, yes
2010-12-01 33555, 2010
hawke_
I’m really just trying to reverse the “don’t use any quote-like characters except " and ', and don’t use …” that we have now.
2010-12-01 33500, 2010
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2010-12-01 33514, 2010
brianfreud
but as for Fahrenheit, Celcius, Roman numbers, Angstrom, Degree, etc, I think that's specifically what this ought to be including.
