#musicbrainz

kepstin-work: that'd limit the reasoning to the few of you who understand sql :p

(my point is that nowhere in the site we call them "advanced")

we could just turn all the relations into advanced relations, and never require a schema change release ever again ;)

actually not a terribly bad idea :)

we need to get fancier attributes first.

hey, why not just switch to an rdf triple-store while we're at it.

hide "medium" entirely, drop "artist", use ARs to describe all artist interactions with a recording/release/RG/work/label, and convert the label part of a RE to a label-release AR

I miss anything?

brianfreud: we want to keep the label-catno association, tho.

I may understand SQL, or at least that's what my business card says, lol

free-form field atribute of the label-releae AR?

kepstin-work: don't be bad - RDF proposing should be done with ianmcorvidae around

reosarevok: I was expecting him to pop up when I said that ;)

http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Ianmcorvidae/RDF in case you haven't seen it

it gives me all sorts of extra options to use when writing jquery selectors in gm scripts :D

brianfreud: That PDF you linked in the edit comment about album vs. other doesn’t seem to make any mention of the official/unofficial status of a release being a criterion; am I just missing it?

Aside from that it seems obvious that “eligible for inclusion on the official British album charts” is going to be different from “album” in general.

well, the obvious - consideration as an "album" requires "official"

I disagree that that is somehow different from the general sense of what "album" means

brianfreud: That’s “consideration for eligibility for inclusion on the official British album charts” though

realistically, when have you ever heard someone refer to a concert bootleg as an "album"?

Personally, I never have, and I've been collecting bootlegs for 20 years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootleg_recording http://www.bobsboots.com/boot.html http://www.nme.com/photos/30-bootleg-albums-you... among many other search results

If we used the british chart rules we’d be excluding digital-only releases too, but we call those albums with no trouble.

That’s not to say that when a bootleg album is “made legit” in some way that the official version should be considered a compilation of course.

the fiona appel pre release

the basement tapes

The Bob's Boots reference is using "album" as equivalent to (presumably) "vinyl". That "album" definition defines it as "not cassette or CD". --> 'A bootleg album, cassette, or CD is one that has been created completely from material (songs, spoken word, etc.) that is not... '

I note that in those 3 cases, the common theme is that they do not use "album". They use "bootleg album".

And we use "album, marked as bootleg"...

I don't think it's a great term, but even "bootleg album", if added to the primary types list, would make more sense (and be more useful) than just "album", in terms of what "album" vs "bootleg" is considered to mean by the 99%

or hell, just add "bootleg"

bootleg is a qualifier for album though

just like people usually say "soundtrack"

so you claim

not "soundtrack album"

The problem with bootlegs is them being shown by default with official albums, not them being shown as albums...

^

yet people *do* say "live album" for official releases.

I, again, have never heard anyone call an unofficial concert recording a "live album" or a "bootleg album".

reosarevok, not really even then.

There are bootleg comps which are released as "albums"

brianfreud: But you can have "bootleg singles"?

there's rather a large difference between a bootleg compilation of studio demos/etc, and a live concert recording.

hawke_1, as I said, I've seen/heard it used in that regard

Using "album" to describe "bootleg concert recording" is counter to all my experience with bootlegs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fifth_Order_of... "The Fifth Order of Angels is a 1974 live bootleg album by Canadian rock band Rush"

http://www.pulpwiki.net/Pulp/PulpLiveBootleg "Pulp Live (bootleg album)"

(note, I'm not claiming it's a very common use)

I think "album" describes some combination of artist intent for inclusion and officialness. True, a bootleg comp does not then qualify, but I think there's still a large gulf between the official album, the pirated album, the bootleg compilation, and then the live concert.

I would say the gap between “pirated album” (as in the prince example) and “bootleg compilation” is pretty narrow.

But that brings to mind the other half of that original proposal, http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User_talk:BrianSchw...

And often the gap between “official compilation” and “bootleg compilation” is likewise narrow

I would disagree on that first, but agree on the second

mainly on grounds described in the table on the above linked wikipage

The main thing about the both compilations is “drawing from a variety of sources”

W/R/T concert recordings, though, I think the big difference, if you ignore release status, is that an official recording of a concert - call it a "live album" if you want - is edited. A bootleg recording of a concert is typically a raw recording, and I find it very difficult to mesh the two concepts: "raw and uncut recording" vs "album of selected tracks"

both of them vary widely though

A taper doesn't go to a concert to tape an album; he goes to tape a concert. I doubt any taper ever considers the resulting recording to then be his own personally created "album"

is not that the big deal of Bob Dylan (and others since) releasing recordings which had previously been released as bootlegs?

The only difference, assuming the recordings are any good to begin with, is the official stamp of approval

I thought the big deal was "official"

they take an unsanctioned commercial release of a recording (whether or not the recording itself was sanctioned), and they claim it as their own, thus making it an official live release; a live "album" if you wish to call it that.

reosarevok, I'm ignoring "official" for the moment, and leaving it to the still unimplemented half of the original proposal

brianfreud: That seems to suggest that you would still consider it a bootleg even once it is officially released.

:P

let me flip the question on you guys...

Official bootleg is an oxymoron, as I said. :-)

much like a “single EP”

What defines an "album" then? If you define "album" to mean "anything not a single or 7 inch", then what ever would be Other?

The unstated definition of album you seem to be using itself seems to be "Other" just by a different name.

"barely-music", somehow

Yet hawke_1 is describing above his intent to use "album" for audio drama

That's an artistic manifestation-thing, I could see the point

I have many such; I wouldn't use the word "album" to describe any of them.

brianfreud: I would define an album pretty much as the british album group does: “>25 min. or > 4 tracks, not a single”

album for audio drama makes perfect sense for me. but I'd pick other for bootleg concert recordings and bootleg/official interview releases.

Clear "others" for me are language instruction CDs, interviews, stuff like that

non-artistic audio

brianfreud: No, I was wondering how best to deal with audio drama

side note: what about when the artist it/him/herself defines something as "EP", but there's more than 25 min and/or 4 tracks?

As I said, “audio drama album” seems weird to me.

eg http://musicbrainz.org/release/966ceb95-7189-31...

brianfreud: Then it’s considered an album for purposes of the british charts. :-)

I’m just saying that seems like a good rule of thumb.

yes, but not by the artist, discographically...

Well, that's artist intent, which supersedes classification unless it's so idiotic it must be parody, isn't it?

:P

any classification which mandates < 25 and < 4 tracks for EPs is pretty broken to begin with.

(I mean, if I put out a 2-min song and call it an album, nobody will take that seriously... if I put out a 35-min EP, and I say it's an EP, why not?)

s/25/25 minutes/

I would note that Big Finish does not appear (and google confirms) to use the word "album" anywhere on their entire site ( http://www.bigfinish.com/ ) - and they're the largest commercial audio drama label I know

hawke_1, sure, for EPs, so long as it's handled the same as we always have for "EP", with a lot of grains of salt :D

brianfreud: yeah, I agree. album is not suitable for audiobooks.

or radio drama

brianfreud: Oh, I know what you’re talking about

Yet I would use album for a, well, album of "poems read by their author" or so

brianfreud: I was referring to one specific release: http://musicbrainz.org/release/a94a8b77-b88f-4f...

(and maybe not audiobook...)

Not audio drama in general

(I would definitely not use audiobook for, dunno, Ginsberg reading Howl, but spokenword)

But I think we're each defining "album" differently. hawke_1, you seem very inclusive, almost to "Other" === "Album". reosarevok, you seem somewhat in the middle - iirc, audio drama, spokenword, interview, (others?) == Other. And I'm more on the other end; for me, "album" == the typical music store concept of an album of music

(do we have a limit for those?)

which?

"how much 'performing' as opposed to 'plain reading' you need to turn 'audiobook' into 'spokenword' "

brianfreud: I mentioned this before to reo, but I tend to think of the primary types as being “how much stuff is there” and the secondary as “what kind of stuff is it”

not afaik; I've always just used common sense

(thinking of Ginsberg reading Howl here, which was by his own indication a "performance", but it is after all reading a poem out loud)

and that fits with how it’s been used historically

hawke_1, as I say, if that's your definition, then you might as well get rid of "Other", as you've just defined "album" to mean anything and everything longer than 25 min.

reosarevok: this one has actual songs in it, but I still would call it "audiobook": http://musicbrainz.org/release/64dbe651-3a94-48...

reosarevok: usually, audiobook is a reading of an existing book. spokenword would more likely be works which weren't previously published in written form, or ...

brianfreud: I certainly wouldn’t use it as an absolute definition.

rule of thumb, grain of salt, etc.

hawke_1, yet you're defining primary type simply based on duration.

by that basis, you might as well make the field system-determined, rather than an editable field.

warp: yeah, but what happens with a work which was written and published as a poem, but also written with oral performance in mind?

if it is based on previously published written work, some adaption has been made for audio -- e.g. the spoken text is compiled from different sources and/or performed in a different order compared to the publisher written works.

single = 1 or 2 songs, maybe some remixes. EP = 4ish songs, short but more than an album, album = long, more than that

I'm suggesting that "album" is more of an overloaded term than simply length.

*short but LESS than an album rather

reosarevok: if you _know_ it was written with oral performance in mind, and that particular performance is such a performance, then that would be spokenword.

It does have at least overtones of being its own secondary type, with the exceptions specifically described as such - ie "live album"

(since we'll want to translate it)

well, yeah, it refers to physical vinyl LP gramophone records too. :-p

goodnight!

night!

'night

this debate is exactly why the term "RoIO" was coined

?

Ah

yes

bootleg collectors, as I said, don't use the term "album". They use "RoIO".

The alternate terms ROIO or RoIO, an acronym meaning "Recording of Indeterminate Origin", or "Recording of Independent Origin", and VOIO or VoIO, an acronym meaning "Video of Indeterminate Origin", or "Video of Independent Origin", arose among Pink Floyd collectors trying to clarify the differences between counterfeits, illegally made copies, live bootlegs, and "ROIOs", meaning recordings whose legal status was difficult or even imp

ossible to determine

yes, and today, it generally means "a bootleg, thus not an album, and not a pirated copy of anything official".

I still don’t see why you would link the concept of officialness so tightly with the concept of “length as distinct from an EP or single”

Esp if bootlegs are hidden by default, it'd be far more useful, I think, to define 3 primary types that do make sense in a bootleg context, rather than trying to map the official music world's concepts to bootlegs

"Soundboard", "Audience", and "Matrix"

or perhaps those are tertiary types :P

Those seem like specific-to-bootleg types. :-)