and that is legitimate because it gives us a distinct way of looking at music from the one which considers the immediate performance as the primary object (you instead have the concept of the "work of art" distinct from the performance)
2012-10-01 27552, 2012
Krystof
but it suggests that the classicalness is in the beholder rather than inherent in the music or the performance or the work
2012-10-01 27540, 2012
Krystof
basically, German late 19th century musicology spun a narrative of "Art Music" going from Telemann/Bach/Haydn/Mozart/Beethoven/Schubert/Schumann
2012-10-01 27500, 2012
Krystof
not entirely coincidentally, the stellar points in this firmament of greats happen to be Germanic
2012-10-01 27535, 2012
noobie
mixed english french track list
2012-10-01 27517, 2012
noobie
caps according to the track language or unify it (english)
2012-10-01 27524, 2012
noobie
?
2012-10-01 27526, 2012
warp
noobie: I was told to do caps per track. and not try to pick something consistent for the entire tracklist.
2012-10-01 27528, 2012
CatCat
[17:20] CallerNo6 so, MBS-4108 (show wiki abstract inline). What's the plan for bands that don't warrant a wikipedia page?
2012-10-01 27543, 2012
noobie
ty warp :)
2012-10-01 27548, 2012
CatCat
have a full fledget artist wiki o our wiki i na subdomain
2012-10-01 27556, 2012
CatCat
I've bee nsaying this for a while :3
2012-10-01 27558, 2012
warp
(I do not agree with that, but I'll follow the guideline because everyone else insisted :)
2012-10-01 27558, 2012
reosarevok
:)
2012-10-01 27547, 2012
reosarevok
Then they got Berg and Schönberg and were like "this doesn't fit, can't we say these are French?"
2012-10-01 27527, 2012
Krystof
well, the ideology of music in the 20th century is not a desperately pleasant topic of conversation :)
2012-10-01 27527, 2012
Anoia joined the channel
2012-10-01 27552, 2012
noobie yields
2012-10-01 27553, 2012
Krystof
but in some sense no, it's a continuation of the trend -- Art Music bifurcating from Popular Music
2012-10-01 27500, 2012
portik has left the channel
2012-10-01 27503, 2012
CatCat
[18:40] kepstin-netbook_ what I really need on here is cellphone-browser style relayout :/
2012-10-01 27541, 2012
CatCat
wap.mb.org plz I totally want that for whne i'm on the go and I'm like "damn when was x album by y released again"and that sort of thing
2012-10-01 27542, 2012
CatCat
@
2012-10-01 27548, 2012
Krystof
you have Schönberg and the viennese school, and then you have unGerman or unRussian or generically unpatriotic music, with all the unpleasant consequences that that entails
2012-10-01 27505, 2012
reosarevok
CatCat: which phone you have?
2012-10-01 27506, 2012
CatCat
would go great with an app for my phone to tag files on it as well
2012-10-01 27507, 2012
reosarevok
(I forget)
2012-10-01 27514, 2012
reosarevok
Android?
2012-10-01 27531, 2012
reosarevok
(because the Android app does that. not the tagging part)
2012-10-01 27540, 2012
reosarevok
I feel I am going to feel sorry I asked when I end up reading weird books on musicology in a few months, but Krystof: is there any decent entry-level stuff about all this?
2012-10-01 27542, 2012
Krystof
reosarevok: that's a good question, actually, because I only play a musicologist on IRC, I'm not really one in real life
2012-10-01 27549, 2012
Krystof
I'll ask the real experts
2012-10-01 27552, 2012
reosarevok
:)
2012-10-01 27534, 2012
Innocuous joined the channel
2012-10-01 27553, 2012
Krystof
also this is way too late for my period; I don't know anything about anything beyond 1750
2012-10-01 27529, 2012
reosarevok
Except computers!
2012-10-01 27531, 2012
reosarevok
(sorry, had to)
2012-10-01 27524, 2012
Krystof
that's debatable :)
2012-10-01 27544, 2012
Krystof
I'll let you know in a week or so if I remember enough about computers to teach my students
2012-10-01 27529, 2012
mas01dl joined the channel
2012-10-01 27500, 2012
CatCat
very interesting conversation re classical music guys
2012-10-01 27508, 2012
CatCat
[20:57] hawke_ I think that’s agreed — it’s the whole basis of having a CSG at all, right?
2012-10-01 27509, 2012
CatCat
[20:57] hawke_ people agree that there *is* classical music.
And then I was lazy, and didn't generate that list :(
2012-10-01 27525, 2012
CatCat wonders if in 500 years they'll be calling motörhead and deep purple classical music?
2012-10-01 27529, 2012
CatCat
:D
2012-10-01 27535, 2012
mas01dl
No.
2012-10-01 27539, 2012
mas01dl
They'll still study it
2012-10-01 27553, 2012
mas01dl
Just as we study popular songs of the 16th Century
2012-10-01 27557, 2012
CatCat
was that an answe to me?
2012-10-01 27504, 2012
mas01dl
Which also aren't Classical music
2012-10-01 27505, 2012
reosarevok
Yes, it was :)
2012-10-01 27509, 2012
mas01dl
CatCat: Yes, sorry
2012-10-01 27515, 2012
reosarevok
hawke: heh ^
2012-10-01 27519, 2012
CatCat was remotely referencing Red Dwarf
2012-10-01 27523, 2012
CatCat
so yea
2012-10-01 27538, 2012
CallerNo6
mas01dl: the question I started with was when do we apply the CSG (classical style guide). So e.g. when do we set the track artist to "composer" rather than "performer".
2012-10-01 27555, 2012
CallerNo6 left out all the question marks
2012-10-01 27516, 2012
mas01dl
\
2012-10-01 27525, 2012
CatCat
alright but what about Howard shore, John Williams and Ennio Morocone?
2012-10-01 27544, 2012
CatCat
Morricone
2012-10-01 27544, 2012
CallerNo6
Well, the good news is that the style guide says nothing yet about when it should apply :-)
2012-10-01 27553, 2012
mas01dl
To me, I want to know the composer of a Kylie song just as much as (ok, much less than) a Schubert one
2012-10-01 27501, 2012
CatCat
hmm
2012-10-01 27523, 2012
mas01dl
CatCat: Yeah, film music makes people who draw lines get headaches.
2012-10-01 27545, 2012
Krystof
surely we want to know who the author of the auto-tune plugin was :)
2012-10-01 27556, 2012
mas01dl
To some extent that's reasonable -- Williams studied classical composition at the Julliard
2012-10-01 27510, 2012
mas01dl
Krystof: I want to know who autotuned Clegg
2012-10-01 27516, 2012
uk has left the channel
2012-10-01 27510, 2012
CallerNo6
mas01dl: my argument is that it doesn't matter if John Wiliams is "classical". The question is more, is this recording of a John Williams work being presented in the classical idiom.
2012-10-01 27504, 2012
mas01dl
CallerNo6: Which is a better question -- after all, it's promoted as a John Williams score, not an LPO recording
2012-10-01 27509, 2012
CallerNo6 repeats himself, not knowing if you've been following the mb-style thread.
2012-10-01 27520, 2012
CatCat
classicla mnusic.. is.. the "work" more thna the "performance" as in, "everybody" and theri mom might know of Beethoven's 5th. but most people don't know about *specific* versions. but most people DO know the difference between Manson's and Soft Cell's "tainted Love" (incidentally both covers)
2012-10-01 27551, 2012
mas01dl
I'd argue that that's true only to an extent
2012-10-01 27558, 2012
CatCat
yes
2012-10-01 27505, 2012
CatCat
but thats it in the most basale way
2012-10-01 27511, 2012
CatCat
and then the edge cases
2012-10-01 27512, 2012
mas01dl
Take Hallelujah or some other heavily covered pop song
2012-10-01 27513, 2012
CatCat
all those
2012-10-01 27522, 2012
CatCat
and the Movement of Deep Purple
2012-10-01 27542, 2012
CatCat
this
2012-10-01 27548, 2012
CatCat
Now grooving to: Junichi Masuda, Go Ichinose ~ Trainer Challenge Theme 5 (0:52) (from Pokémon Gold & Silver) (2000)
2012-10-01 27556, 2012
CatCat
is it classicla music? it's composed most definitly
2012-10-01 27504, 2012
CatCat
and thne bittunes
2012-10-01 27522, 2012
CatCat
it gets... complicated way fast
2012-10-01 27528, 2012
mas01dl
Some Steve Reich was never scored, but only worked out amongst the players
2012-10-01 27542, 2012
mas01dl
Modern performances are covers, reconstructed from the recording
2012-10-01 27501, 2012
CallerNo6
Oh, neat. Like the Zorn game pieces.
2012-10-01 27504, 2012
CallerNo6
(maybe)
2012-10-01 27505, 2012
CatCat
and thne you have the glorious thing, when "classicla" tune becomes a "pop tune" when idk disney or old times would get old classicla melodies and write words for it.
2012-10-01 27506, 2012
mas01dl
There're a few examples of `classical' pieces becoming `folk songs' and then becoming arranged into classical pieces again
2012-10-01 27508, 2012
CatCat
or this: "if I had Words" melody originally a part of Saint-Saëns's symphony
2012-10-01 27516, 2012
mas01dl
Often bawdy songs becoming retexted
2012-10-01 27540, 2012
CatCat
[21:44] mas01dl Modern performances are covers, reconstructed from the recording this
2012-10-01 27544, 2012
CatCat
erh
2012-10-01 27549, 2012
CatCat
this
2012-10-01 27509, 2012
CatCat
for "modern" classical music
2012-10-01 27530, 2012
CatCat
like composers, philip glass or these score's music ofr films, games
2012-10-01 27542, 2012
CatCat
they score and sometime direct/play what have you their own
2012-10-01 27555, 2012
CatCat
thne it might get "covered" by some other orchestra or band even
2012-10-01 27500, 2012
CatCat
i had my hands on this
2012-10-01 27517, 2012
CatCat
a re-playing of the music of 3 of the first harry potter soundtracks
2012-10-01 27520, 2012
CallerNo6
So mas01dl, if we can ask "is this recording performed/presented in the classical idiom" (and downplay the "classicalness" of the works themselves), then I'm stuck defining "classical idiom" which may or may not be easier than defining "classical music" itself.
2012-10-01 27523, 2012
CatCat
it was a differnt orchesta playing
2012-10-01 27534, 2012
CallerNo6
My favorite criterium so far is, "does it have an inane bucolic landscape on the cover?"
2012-10-01 27546, 2012
mas01dl
Isn't the question 'is this the sort of thing where people care who composed it more than they care who played it'?
2012-10-01 27557, 2012
mas01dl
Though I like the cover art option too
2012-10-01 27518, 2012
mas01dl
I was really put off the CSG by the idea that I should divide my collection up and mangle all the headings
2012-10-01 27545, 2012
Krystof
I think the new one involves less mangling
2012-10-01 27550, 2012
Shepard joined the channel
2012-10-01 27554, 2012
mas01dl
Ooh, that'd be nice
2012-10-01 27558, 2012
Krystof
though of course now my digitized collection is hopelessly inconsistent
2012-10-01 27507, 2012
Krystof
s/digitized/format-shifted/
2012-10-01 27541, 2012
mas01dl
What happens if a singer sings some classical, some jazz and some folk songs on a single CD, do the fields leap around from track to track?
