They still want to mandate that all the release entries use hyphens when the releases do not.
2014-01-12 01248, 2014
reosarevok
warp: well, hyphens were added to those CDs even though they don't have it (to standardise)
2014-01-12 01259, 2014
reosarevok
I don't particularly agree with it, although it seems very minor either way
2014-01-12 01206, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
It's not minor.
2014-01-12 01224, 2014
warp
we standardise lots of things, change them from how they appear on the cover.
2014-01-12 01237, 2014
reosarevok
Any decent catno search should ignore hyphens anyway, so if ours doesn't that should change
2014-01-12 01238, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
Mostly for grammatical purposes
2014-01-12 01226, 2014
reosarevok doesn't really know if it does (it ignores spaces IIRC but dunno about punctuation...)
2014-01-12 01230, 2014
SultS
if the correct catalog number has hyphens (and I don’t know those should have), I think we should fix these errors
2014-01-12 01231, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
Many of the changes we normally do I agree with since it's proper English grammar
2014-01-12 01238, 2014
warp
HibiscusKazeneko: consistency between releases is one of the main goals (because that has historically one of the major issues with musicbrainz' predecessors)
2014-01-12 01250, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
such consistency is impossible
2014-01-12 01208, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
Every label handles catno's diffrerently
2014-01-12 01200, 2014
warp
so? that doesn't neccesarily mean we should as well.
2014-01-12 01208, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
It's a data loss
2014-01-12 01229, 2014
warp
sure, so are all the other standardizations we do in musicbrainz.
2014-01-12 01237, 2014
CallerNo6
There'll always be tension between normalization-people and as-on-cover-people.
2014-01-12 01210, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
See? What'd I tell you? You're ganging up on me!
2014-01-12 01218, 2014
warp
HibiscusKazeneko: we currently have no guideline which says we should standardize, so any edit which makes it closer to the cover is correct.
2014-01-12 01232, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
Yindesu and co. keep voting all of mine down
2014-01-12 01252, 2014
warp
until there is a guideline, they're wrong.
2014-01-12 01209, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
And they'll still tarnish my reputation
2014-01-12 01232, 2014
warp
(but I would support a guideline standardizing japanese post-1989 catalog numbers in musicbrainz)
2014-01-12 01257, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
Then I'd have no choice but to pack up and leave.
2014-01-12 01204, 2014
warp
how is your reputation tarnished by other people's votes?
2014-01-12 01216, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
It causes people to take me less seriously.
2014-01-12 01223, 2014
CallerNo6 understands how it might feel that way. But, again, we're all on the same team. :-)
2014-01-12 01217, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
We're not on the same team if we're grandstanding against each other.
2014-01-12 01213, 2014
warp
we all want accurate, useful data.
2014-01-12 01227, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
And many of you are trying to strip away that accuracy!
2014-01-12 01247, 2014
warp
that we sometimes have disagreements on what that means exactly doesn't mean we're not on the same team :)
2014-01-12 01227, 2014
reosarevok
There's always a tradeoff between usefulness and accuracy, but I'm not sure I agree putting hyphens in all catnos improves usefulness
2014-01-12 01211, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
It really doesn't.
2014-01-12 01225, 2014
warp
it is easy for a data consumer to do in post-processing if they want, so it seems mostly an aesthetic for MB editors.
2014-01-12 01226, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
Unless there's some sort of algorithm that requires them, they're not worth anything.
2014-01-12 01238, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
I hardly see them in any Western releases.
2014-01-12 01215, 2014
CallerNo6
Is it just a matter of changing whitespace to hyphens? Or is there more to it?
2014-01-12 01222, 2014
JesseW joined the channel
2014-01-12 01223, 2014
warp
CallerNo6: no, that's it.
2014-01-12 01226, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
Sometimes there's no space at all.
2014-01-12 01254, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
I dug up Ami Suzuki's "Infinity Eighteen Vol.1" and it doesn't use a space between the letter portion and the number portion
2014-01-12 01205, 2014
warp
HibiscusKazeneko: one of the things I dislike about how we store catalog numbers is that we cannot associate them with discs.
2014-01-12 01234, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
I'd like to change that too. I often see catalog numbers like AAAA-0001~2
2014-01-12 01251, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
which for those who don't know is an indicator of several discs
2014-01-12 01216, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
I normally split them into AAAA-0001 and AAAA-0002, but many editors skip that step
2014-01-12 01219, 2014
SultS
I don’t like to see those catalog numbers on releases
2014-01-12 01225, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
Me neither
2014-01-12 01235, 2014
warp
you also see /A and /B suffixes for discs sometimes.
2014-01-12 01253, 2014
warp
SultS: which catalog numbers?
2014-01-12 01258, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
That means there's more than one disc and the suffix is added to the catalog number of the second disc.
2014-01-12 01210, 2014
SultS
warp: the ones that only apply to one medium, one the whole release
2014-01-12 01232, 2014
warp
SultS: the first one is typically used as the catalog number of the whole release.
2014-01-12 01201, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
They're often listed that way on shopping sites
2014-01-12 01210, 2014
SultS
whole release one is OK
2014-01-12 01217, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
It might trip some people up (it used to do so to me)
I have a bunch of Toshiba EMI/EMI Music Japan/Universal Japan releases that attest to this
2014-01-12 01201, 2014
warp
sure, but that is an indication that the hyphen can be omitted or inserted depending on how the catalog number is used. so in itself it is not important data we must have in musicbrainz.
2014-01-12 01241, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
More so that it doesn't look nice when you stack the halves on top of each other.
2014-01-12 01217, 2014
warp
right, if not looking nice is a reason for labels to leave the hyphen off. I think that is a also valid reason for us to include it.
2014-01-12 01223, 2014
Jinxor joined the channel
2014-01-12 01246, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
If it's included elsewhere on the packaging, you mean?
2014-01-12 01237, 2014
CallerNo6
To me, warp's point suggests that (at least some) labels don't see the hyphen as anything but a graphic design element.
2014-01-12 01220, 2014
sampsyo joined the channel
2014-01-12 01229, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
Sounds a bit like that, yes.
2014-01-12 01213, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
It's further validated when you consider that some labels use/used unusual characters in catno's (e.g. Epic/Sony before mid-1989)
They used a dot for the first separation, followed by a hyphen
2014-01-12 01212, 2014
SultS
OT: is this an intentional thing that clicking anywhere but the cover art frame no longer closes it?
2014-01-12 01228, 2014
reosarevok
AFAIK there's a fix in review
2014-01-12 01229, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
I have no idea. I noticed that too.
2014-01-12 01246, 2014
SultS
ah, good to know… I like that it closes it
2014-01-12 01252, 2014
SultS
used to, that is
2014-01-12 01259, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
As did I
2014-01-12 01228, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
Using a touchpad makes me miss the mark when clicking sometimes
2014-01-12 01249, 2014
LegoCat
man do I love that we nolonger have the broken thicketbox or whatever it was called though. the having to click the x is a fine tradeoff imho, and if there is a fix to so that clcikig nanywhere removes it - well, all the better
2014-01-12 01252, 2014
LegoCat
slautations!
2014-01-12 01202, 2014
LegoCat
salutations !
2014-01-12 01208, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
yo
2014-01-12 01213, 2014
Wixy joined the channel
2014-01-12 01218, 2014
LegoCat
and with that
2014-01-12 01220, 2014
LegoCat
good night
2014-01-12 01224, 2014
Wixy
Hello people
2014-01-12 01226, 2014
LegoCat
oyasumi!
2014-01-12 01230, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
it's what, 8:30 there?
2014-01-12 01242, 2014
Wixy
how much time does it take to load the datadump into a DB?
2014-01-12 01249, 2014
Wixy
it's been running for 3 hours
2014-01-12 01256, 2014
Wixy
and it seems to be stuck in track
2014-01-12 01259, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
how big a dump is it?
2014-01-12 01204, 2014
nikki
warp: post-processing is hard when it's ambiguous :/
2014-01-12 01213, 2014
Wixy
12M rows in track
2014-01-12 01231, 2014
Wixy
select count(*) from track is 0
2014-01-12 01238, 2014
Wixy
but it's using more and more disk
2014-01-12 01246, 2014
Wixy
I guess it's indexing everything before or something, I have no idea
2014-01-12 01250, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
I know absolutely nothing about this so you might have to ask over at #musicbrainz-devel
2014-01-12 01211, 2014
reosarevok
Wixy: it taking several hours i normal
2014-01-12 01213, 2014
reosarevok
*is
2014-01-12 01245, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
I think I'm experiencing a caffeine crash
2014-01-12 01252, 2014
warp
nikki: example?
2014-01-12 01226, 2014
KillDaBOB joined the channel
2014-01-12 01254, 2014
nikki
warp: abcd-1000-1 could be a range or a disc sub-number thingy. abc1-2 could be prefix abc1, suffix 2 or prefix abc, suffix 1, range 2 or prefix abc, suffix 1, disc sub-number thingy 2
2014-01-12 01205, 2014
reosarevok
Then there's the thing where BIS makes a 5xCD and calls it "BIS-CD-801/3" or something
2014-01-12 01221, 2014
reosarevok
(apparently because it's priced the same as 3 1xCDs
2014-01-12 01222, 2014
reosarevok
)
2014-01-12 01246, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
That's why it's helpful to have scans of all the packaging
2014-01-12 01202, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
the catalog numbers for the individual discs could be printed somewhere
2014-01-12 01213, 2014
warp
nikki: I would expect anything matching /[A-Z]{4,5} ?[0-9]{4,5}/ to be safe to add a hyphen to.
2014-01-12 01238, 2014
warp
(well, start with ^)
2014-01-12 01237, 2014
nikki
also unless we change the way the style process works, there'll never be a guideline, so it seems unfair to me to say people should make a guideline if they want that
2014-01-12 01227, 2014
nikki
(having to make guidelines for everything that people think shouldn't follow the cover exactly would also result in a stupid amount of guidelines)
2014-01-12 01236, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
Basic grammar is one thing, but this is a whole 'mother story
2014-01-12 01249, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
'mother (damn AutoCorrect)
2014-01-12 01253, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
gah
2014-01-12 01259, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
'nother
2014-01-12 01209, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
I hate this feature
2014-01-12 01214, 2014
CallerNo6
old joke. a Freudian slip is when you say one thing when you meant a mother.
2014-01-12 01217, 2014
nikki
can't you turn it off?
2014-01-12 01225, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
I might be able to
2014-01-12 01228, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
let me check
2014-01-12 01225, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
I can't find an option to toggle it off in Preferences
2014-01-12 01232, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
(I'm using Colloquy)
2014-01-12 01201, 2014
nikki
is it actually something in colloquy or in osx in general?
2014-01-12 01217, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
It's part of Colloquy (a Mac-only IRC client)
2014-01-12 01234, 2014
HibiscusKazeneko
I don't have any other application (besides iMessage) that does this
2014-01-12 01228, 2014
nikki
huh strange. I guess they must've started developing it again since I last used it
