It seems like that would make classical even more complicated.
2014-10-09 28218, 2014
CallerNo6
(hypothetically... in practice, most works I'm concerned with are 'untitled' anyway)
2014-10-09 28222, 2014
hawke
CallerNo6: Just for a hard example, http://beta.musicbrainz.org/edit/29615079 — If someone told me that “Nosutarujia” was the canonical name of that song as opposed to “Nostalgia” (regardless of script), I would say they were crazy.
2014-10-09 28217, 2014
kepstin-laptop
I would say that "ノスタルジア" is the canonical name of that recording, and both "Nosutarujia" and "Nostalgia" are transformations of that name.
2014-10-09 28258, 2014
kepstin-laptop
(whether or not the cue number M-27 should be in there or not is a completely different thing, of course)
2014-10-09 28214, 2014
hawke
Yeah, I’m not too worried about the cue number for purpose of this discussion.
2014-10-09 28253, 2014
hawke
kepstin-laptop: And I would say “Nostalgia” is the canonical name, and the other two are the transformations.
2014-10-09 28253, 2014
kepstin-laptop suspects that japanese folks would disagree with you
2014-10-09 28201, 2014
kepstin-laptop looks at the votes
2014-10-09 28204, 2014
kepstin-laptop
er,
2014-10-09 28206, 2014
_5moufl
kepstin-laptop : the recording id tag seems to be written somewhere i can't access, but the track id doesn't even appear in picard
2014-10-09 28224, 2014
kepstin-laptop
_5moufl: is your picard new enough?
2014-10-09 28232, 2014
_5moufl
1.2
2014-10-09 28235, 2014
hawke
(Because “Nostalgia” is actually a word, whereas “ノスタルジア” AFAIK is not)
2014-10-09 28256, 2014
CallerNo6
But it's a name.
2014-10-09 28205, 2014
kepstin-laptop
my japanese dictionary disagrees with you, actually. :)
2014-10-09 28201, 2014
hawke
Note I would also be OK with correcting an English title which was written as “smorgasbord” into “smörgåsbord”
2014-10-09 28257, 2014
kepstin-laptop
but that's completely changing the language of the title
2014-10-09 28213, 2014
kepstin-laptop
smorgasbord is an english word, smörgåsbord is a swedish word
2014-10-09 28242, 2014
hawke
smorgasbord is not an English word.
2014-10-09 28202, 2014
kepstin-laptop
english usage and english dictionaries disagree with you.
2014-10-09 28218, 2014
CallerNo6 would feel odd if his birth certificate said Αλέξανδρος
CallerNo6: I think it requires a change in meaning or a change in spelling (of course, whether a transliteration counts as “change in spelling” I’m not sure.
... you'd be wrong. I suspect many of the english users don't even know that it came from german any more...
2014-10-09 28238, 2014
hawke
kepstin-laptop: I would not be wrong. It’s a German word used in English.
2014-10-09 28244, 2014
hawke
It doesn’t matter if the users know the origin.
2014-10-09 28251, 2014
kepstin-laptop
it's an english word that originally came from german
2014-10-09 28258, 2014
kepstin-laptop
quite a big distinction :)
2014-10-09 28236, 2014
kepstin-laptop
english has a lot of words in it that were originall french, german, etc., often modified significantly, sometimes not as much...
2014-10-09 28249, 2014
hawke
It *might* be an English word, if a kindergarten in an English-speaking country was a completely different thing than a kindergarten in Germany.
2014-10-09 28211, 2014
CallerNo6
Then is it correct to say that "there's no word in English for 'a school or class for young children between the ages of four and six years'? (other than "Hell", of course)
2014-10-09 28230, 2014
CallerNo6
"
2014-10-09 28205, 2014
hawke
I would say that “English uses the German word for [etc]”
2014-10-09 28212, 2014
hawke
Now, “Pretzel” is an English word; the German is “Brezel”
2014-10-09 28227, 2014
hawke
(even though one derives from the other)
2014-10-09 28208, 2014
_5moufl
kepstin-laptop : as expected, I get the track id field (as well as some other new fields) with the latest picard build :)
2014-10-09 28232, 2014
_5moufl
I'd have waited two days before retagging my library if I knew this :'
2014-10-09 28253, 2014
kepstin-laptop
man, you get some really fun things when you start roundtripping between languages. the english word 'cosplay' comes from the japanese 'コスプレ' which was made by taking the first two kana from each word of the japanese transliteration of the english words 'costume' and 'play' :)
2014-10-09 28240, 2014
kepstin-laptop
(taking the first two kana from each of two words is a pretty common way of doing abbreviations in japanese)
2014-10-09 28217, 2014
hawke
So…cosplay is a Japanese word. Seems reasonable to me.
2014-10-09 28233, 2014
kepstin-laptop
no, コスプレ is a japanese word
2014-10-09 28243, 2014
kepstin-laptop
it doesn't even directly transliterate to 'cosplay'
2014-10-09 28231, 2014
hawke
See my comment above, ‘whether a transliteration counts as “change in spelling” I’m not sure.’
2014-10-09 28201, 2014
CallerNo6
portmanteau is French, so obviously cosplay is a french word
2014-10-09 28247, 2014
CallerNo6
wait. French isn't a French word.
2014-10-09 28254, 2014
kepstin-laptop
heh
2014-10-09 28251, 2014
_5moufl
:o
2014-10-09 28205, 2014
kepstin-laptop
it's not like english has any formal gatekeepers. something pretty much becomes an english word by getting somewhat broad usage by english speakers.
2014-10-09 28223, 2014
hawke
kepstin-laptop: I don’t see any useful definition of an “English word” then.
2014-10-09 28226, 2014
kepstin-laptop
and then dictionaries go "huh, this word is used a lot in english, better add it to the english dictionary"
2014-10-09 28211, 2014
hawke
Unless all words are English word that just haven’t been adopted yet.
2014-10-09 28226, 2014
kepstin-laptop
well, those ones aren't english... yet :)
2014-10-09 28232, 2014
kepstin-laptop
amusingly, "smorgasbords" is the english plural of "smorgasbord", but the swedish plural is formed completely differently.
2014-10-09 28204, 2014
CatQuest is distinctly on the caller/jesus/kepstin/xm..whats his name side
2014-10-09 28222, 2014
CatQuest
english borrow a lot of words from other languages
2014-10-09 28233, 2014
CatQuest
and also, how old does something have to be before it's enlish?
2014-10-09 28238, 2014
kepstin-laptop
i dunno, borrow isn't quite right; we don't normally give them back ;)
2014-10-09 28243, 2014
CatQuest
you have ombudsman? is that english?
2014-10-09 28259, 2014
CatQuest
hehe I'm norwegianing- it's called "låneord" in norwegian
2014-10-09 28226, 2014
CatQuest
what about monday, thusday, friday?
2014-10-09 28247, 2014
CatQuest
and words derived of words that where "lent"?
2014-10-09 28239, 2014
CatQuest
ok ,so words like "sushi" and "taco" aren't english words... but they are basially english in that it's used in inglish
2014-10-09 28251, 2014
kepstin-laptop
I mean, "music" must be a french word, right? it's a misspelling of french "musique", right? :)
2014-10-09 28234, 2014
kepstin-laptop
(well, I suppose that actually goes back to greek, etc.)
2014-10-09 28252, 2014
CatQuest
the ting is that english is in a.. særstilling (special position) sine it's a language of words from every other words. pretty much built up by every other language almost. a lot of other languages "borrow back" and still consider it.. "their language we do this with brand names very often in non-english speaking. like here also, not just in japan for example
2014-10-09 28212, 2014
CatQuest
and that too. originally it's germnaic latin greek
2014-10-09 28230, 2014
CatQuest
so much of english is derived or dervided ofderived of oold norse actually
2014-10-09 28237, 2014
CatQuest
all the preositions the wek days
2014-10-09 28246, 2014
hawke
Nostalgia (to use the recording title in question, created from Greek by a Swiss man…presumably a German-speaker? )
2014-10-09 28210, 2014
CatQuest
and the stuff that came via the french ie normandie? why you think it''s called "nor-man-die?" ;) originally viking that too!
2014-10-09 28211, 2014
CatQuest
:P
2014-10-09 28225, 2014
CatQuest
nostalgi
2014-10-09 28241, 2014
CatQuest
by your definition this is *not* a norwegian word sine it's not really altered enough
2014-10-09 28209, 2014
CatQuest
it'd work the other way too. all the borrowed words from english old and new wouldn't be considered that language words
2014-10-09 28221, 2014
kepstin-laptop
is "stjerne" a norwegian word or a danish word? :)
2014-10-09 28224, 2014
CatQuest
pretty much every word wouldn't be the word of the languge it's spoken in!
2014-10-09 28231, 2014
CatQuest
kepstin-laptop: EXactly!
2014-10-09 28230, 2014
CatQuest
i shure as hell am not speaking or typing danish ! (not that I have any ill wil against danes in general or my favourite dane in particular :D)
2014-10-09 28253, 2014
CatQuest
but he's not typig in swedish when he typesdanish either
2014-10-09 28213, 2014
CatQuest
nore are eiher of us typingin german when we type scandinavain langs together
2014-10-09 28218, 2014
hawke
If you’re typing the same exact words in the same order…
2014-10-09 28229, 2014
hawke
…the distinction is meaningless.
2014-10-09 28231, 2014
CatQuest
it's *STILL* differnt languages
2014-10-09 28253, 2014
CatQuest
hawke: don't argue language war with a norweian, seriously :P
2014-10-09 28223, 2014
CatQuest
and the words aren't compltetly identical, but very similar. similar enough for some times there to be alsmot the same
2014-10-09 28259, 2014
CatQuest
e.g. "jag elskar dej" vs "jeg elsker deg"
2014-10-09 28255, 2014
CatQuest
norwegian even has 2 scripts. and sometimes people type their dialects
2014-10-09 28217, 2014
CatQuest
hell if I was to do that it's be.. "jæi ellskr dæi"
2014-10-09 28219, 2014
skd5aner joined the channel
2014-10-09 28225, 2014
CatQuest
and that's what the japanese katana of スタルジア is
2014-10-09 28232, 2014
CatQuest
that's how they *say* it
2014-10-09 28255, 2014
kepstin-laptop
you missed a 'no' in your copy/paste, but we get the point :)
2014-10-09 28209, 2014
CatQuest
if I was going to katana-ise my name it'd do it diffeerntly based on if it was a norwegian or an enlish way it's pronounced
2014-10-09 28220, 2014
CatQuest
oops
2014-10-09 28229, 2014
CatQuest
i though tit was star not nostarja
2014-10-09 28232, 2014
CatQuest
or how it was
2014-10-09 28240, 2014
CatQuest
but that's sutaru
2014-10-09 28203, 2014
kepstin-laptop
"nostalgia" / "ノスタルジア" is the original words
2014-10-09 28227, 2014
CatQuest
yea i copied it wrng fro mthe scrollback
2014-10-09 28246, 2014
CatQuest
wrong from the scrollback
2014-10-09 28210, 2014
murk_ joined the channel
2014-10-09 28222, 2014
hawke
IMO that’s the same word in different scripts.
2014-10-09 28257, 2014
hawke
With the Latin form being the original.
2014-10-09 28203, 2014
CatQuest
so to you . ö is totally excangeable to ø ?
2014-10-09 28210, 2014
hawke
CatQuest: Probably not, since I don’t know the pronunciation of either.
2014-10-09 28247, 2014
CatQuest
hang on a sec whiel i do a thing
2014-10-09 28200, 2014
kepstin-laptop notes that "ノスタルジア" is an annoyingly common japanese song title :/
2014-10-09 28207, 2014
JESUS2099 joined the channel
2014-10-09 28207, 2014
CatQuest
there 's that naruto credits song too.. nostalgiiaa :P
2014-10-09 28220, 2014
CatQuest
åhåh, nå blir det trøbbel
2014-10-09 28220, 2014
JESUS2099
anyway hawke even if we talk about made up words, the recordings should be the same if they are this way on 100% tracklist, as they were chosen to be
2014-10-09 28231, 2014
CatQuest
i agree with this
2014-10-09 28242, 2014
JESUS2099
we don’t need to know if they are this or that words… the tracklists 100% all print the same, why change the recordings ?
