kepstin-work: that'd limit the reasoning to the few of you who understand sql :p
2012-05-17 13850, 2012
reosarevok
(my point is that nowhere in the site we call them "advanced")
2012-05-17 13839, 2012
kepstin-work
we could just turn all the relations into advanced relations, and never require a schema change release ever again ;)
2012-05-17 13801, 2012
brianfreud
actually not a terribly bad idea :)
2012-05-17 13846, 2012
kepstin-work
we need to get fancier attributes first.
2012-05-17 13857, 2012
kepstin-work
hey, why not just switch to an rdf triple-store while we're at it.
2012-05-17 13800, 2012
brianfreud
hide "medium" entirely, drop "artist", use ARs to describe all artist interactions with a recording/release/RG/work/label, and convert the label part of a RE to a label-release AR
2012-05-17 13833, 2012
brianfreud
I miss anything?
2012-05-17 13835, 2012
kepstin-work
brianfreud: we want to keep the label-catno association, tho.
2012-05-17 13852, 2012
derwin
I may understand SQL, or at least that's what my business card says, lol
2012-05-17 13857, 2012
brianfreud
free-form field atribute of the label-releae AR?
2012-05-17 13858, 2012
reosarevok
kepstin-work: don't be bad - RDF proposing should be done with ianmcorvidae around
2012-05-17 13813, 2012
kepstin-work
reosarevok: I was expecting him to pop up when I said that ;)
it gives me all sorts of extra options to use when writing jquery selectors in gm scripts :D
2012-05-17 13838, 2012
kepstin-work has left the channel
2012-05-17 13836, 2012
brianfreud joined the channel
2012-05-17 13800, 2012
hawke_1
brianfreud: That PDF you linked in the edit comment about album vs. other doesn’t seem to make any mention of the official/unofficial status of a release being a criterion; am I just missing it?
2012-05-17 13814, 2012
hawke_1
Aside from that it seems obvious that “eligible for inclusion on the official British album charts” is going to be different from “album” in general.
2012-05-17 13804, 2012
brianfreud
well, the obvious - consideration as an "album" requires "official"
2012-05-17 13825, 2012
brianfreud
I disagree that that is somehow different from the general sense of what "album" means
2012-05-17 13854, 2012
hawke_1
brianfreud: That’s “consideration for eligibility for inclusion on the official British album charts” though
2012-05-17 13844, 2012
brianfreud
realistically, when have you ever heard someone refer to a concert bootleg as an "album"?
2012-05-17 13851, 2012
brianfreud
Personally, I never have, and I've been collecting bootlegs for 20 years
That’s not to say that when a bootleg album is “made legit” in some way that the official version should be considered a compilation of course.
2012-05-17 13826, 2012
derwin
the fiona appel pre release
2012-05-17 13837, 2012
derwin
the basement tapes
2012-05-17 13815, 2012
brianfreud
The Bob's Boots reference is using "album" as equivalent to (presumably) "vinyl". That "album" definition defines it as "not cassette or CD". --> 'A bootleg album, cassette, or CD is one that has been created completely from material (songs, spoken word, etc.) that is not... '
2012-05-17 13817, 2012
brianfreud
I note that in those 3 cases, the common theme is that they do not use "album". They use "bootleg album".
2012-05-17 13853, 2012
reosarevok
And we use "album, marked as bootleg"...
2012-05-17 13854, 2012
brianfreud
I don't think it's a great term, but even "bootleg album", if added to the primary types list, would make more sense (and be more useful) than just "album", in terms of what "album" vs "bootleg" is considered to mean by the 99%
2012-05-17 13807, 2012
brianfreud
or hell, just add "bootleg"
2012-05-17 13812, 2012
hawke_1
bootleg is a qualifier for album though
2012-05-17 13822, 2012
hawke_1
just like people usually say "soundtrack"
2012-05-17 13831, 2012
brianfreud
so you claim
2012-05-17 13835, 2012
hawke_1
not "soundtrack album"
2012-05-17 13842, 2012
reosarevok
The problem with bootlegs is them being shown by default with official albums, not them being shown as albums...
2012-05-17 13848, 2012
hawke_1
^
2012-05-17 13856, 2012
brianfreud
yet people *do* say "live album" for official releases.
2012-05-17 13822, 2012
brianfreud
I, again, have never heard anyone call an unofficial concert recording a "live album" or a "bootleg album".
2012-05-17 13838, 2012
brianfreud
reosarevok, not really even then.
2012-05-17 13848, 2012
brianfreud
There are bootleg comps which are released as "albums"
2012-05-17 13816, 2012
hawke_1
brianfreud: But you can have "bootleg singles"?
2012-05-17 13822, 2012
brianfreud
there's rather a large difference between a bootleg compilation of studio demos/etc, and a live concert recording.
2012-05-17 13830, 2012
brianfreud
hawke_1, as I said, I've seen/heard it used in that regard
2012-05-17 13813, 2012
brianfreud
Using "album" to describe "bootleg concert recording" is counter to all my experience with bootlegs.
I think "album" describes some combination of artist intent for inclusion and officialness. True, a bootleg comp does not then qualify, but I think there's still a large gulf between the official album, the pirated album, the bootleg compilation, and then the live concert.
2012-05-17 13842, 2012
hawke_1
I would say the gap between “pirated album” (as in the prince example) and “bootleg compilation” is pretty narrow.
And often the gap between “official compilation” and “bootleg compilation” is likewise narrow
2012-05-17 13836, 2012
brianfreud
I would disagree on that first, but agree on the second
2012-05-17 13852, 2012
brianfreud
mainly on grounds described in the table on the above linked wikipage
2012-05-17 13857, 2012
hawke_1
The main thing about the both compilations is “drawing from a variety of sources”
2012-05-17 13815, 2012
brianfreud
W/R/T concert recordings, though, I think the big difference, if you ignore release status, is that an official recording of a concert - call it a "live album" if you want - is edited. A bootleg recording of a concert is typically a raw recording, and I find it very difficult to mesh the two concepts: "raw and uncut recording" vs "album of selected tracks"
2012-05-17 13811, 2012
hawke_1
both of them vary widely though
2012-05-17 13820, 2012
brianfreud
A taper doesn't go to a concert to tape an album; he goes to tape a concert. I doubt any taper ever considers the resulting recording to then be his own personally created "album"
2012-05-17 13810, 2012
brianfreud
is not that the big deal of Bob Dylan (and others since) releasing recordings which had previously been released as bootlegs?
2012-05-17 13801, 2012
hawke_1
The only difference, assuming the recordings are any good to begin with, is the official stamp of approval
2012-05-17 13802, 2012
reosarevok
I thought the big deal was "official"
2012-05-17 13803, 2012
brianfreud
they take an unsanctioned commercial release of a recording (whether or not the recording itself was sanctioned), and they claim it as their own, thus making it an official live release; a live "album" if you wish to call it that.
2012-05-17 13837, 2012
brianfreud
reosarevok, I'm ignoring "official" for the moment, and leaving it to the still unimplemented half of the original proposal
2012-05-17 13847, 2012
hawke_1
brianfreud: That seems to suggest that you would still consider it a bootleg even once it is officially released.
2012-05-17 13810, 2012
brianfreud
:P
2012-05-17 13834, 2012
brianfreud
let me flip the question on you guys...
2012-05-17 13840, 2012
hawke_1
Official bootleg is an oxymoron, as I said. :-)
2012-05-17 13850, 2012
hawke_1
much like a “single EP”
2012-05-17 13821, 2012
brianfreud
What defines an "album" then? If you define "album" to mean "anything not a single or 7 inch", then what ever would be Other?
2012-05-17 13852, 2012
brianfreud
The unstated definition of album you seem to be using itself seems to be "Other" just by a different name.
2012-05-17 13823, 2012
reosarevok would use "other" for stuff like interviews
2012-05-17 13832, 2012
reosarevok
"barely-music", somehow
2012-05-17 13843, 2012
brianfreud
Yet hawke_1 is describing above his intent to use "album" for audio drama
2012-05-17 13808, 2012
reosarevok
That's an artistic manifestation-thing, I could see the point
2012-05-17 13812, 2012
brianfreud
I have many such; I wouldn't use the word "album" to describe any of them.
2012-05-17 13818, 2012
hawke_1
brianfreud: I would define an album pretty much as the british album group does: “>25 min. or > 4 tracks, not a single”
2012-05-17 13833, 2012
warp
album for audio drama makes perfect sense for me. but I'd pick other for bootleg concert recordings and bootleg/official interview releases.
2012-05-17 13837, 2012
reosarevok
Clear "others" for me are language instruction CDs, interviews, stuff like that
2012-05-17 13852, 2012
reosarevok
non-artistic audio
2012-05-17 13852, 2012
hawke_1
brianfreud: No, I was wondering how best to deal with audio drama
2012-05-17 13859, 2012
brianfreud
side note: what about when the artist it/him/herself defines something as "EP", but there's more than 25 min and/or 4 tracks?
brianfreud: Then it’s considered an album for purposes of the british charts. :-)
2012-05-17 13840, 2012
hawke_1
I’m just saying that seems like a good rule of thumb.
2012-05-17 13850, 2012
brianfreud
yes, but not by the artist, discographically...
2012-05-17 13812, 2012
reosarevok
Well, that's artist intent, which supersedes classification unless it's so idiotic it must be parody, isn't it?
2012-05-17 13820, 2012
brianfreud
:P
2012-05-17 13844, 2012
warp
any classification which mandates < 25 and < 4 tracks for EPs is pretty broken to begin with.
2012-05-17 13847, 2012
reosarevok
(I mean, if I put out a 2-min song and call it an album, nobody will take that seriously... if I put out a 35-min EP, and I say it's an EP, why not?)
2012-05-17 13850, 2012
warp
s/25/25 minutes/
2012-05-17 13813, 2012
brianfreud
I would note that Big Finish does not appear (and google confirms) to use the word "album" anywhere on their entire site ( http://www.bigfinish.com/ ) - and they're the largest commercial audio drama label I know
2012-05-17 13803, 2012
brianfreud
hawke_1, sure, for EPs, so long as it's handled the same as we always have for "EP", with a lot of grains of salt :D
2012-05-17 13818, 2012
hawke_1
brianfreud: yeah, I agree. album is not suitable for audiobooks.
2012-05-17 13825, 2012
hawke_1
or radio drama
2012-05-17 13841, 2012
hawke_1
brianfreud: Oh, I know what you’re talking about
2012-05-17 13806, 2012
reosarevok
Yet I would use album for a, well, album of "poems read by their author" or so
(I would definitely not use audiobook for, dunno, Ginsberg reading Howl, but spokenword)
2012-05-17 13859, 2012
brianfreud
But I think we're each defining "album" differently. hawke_1, you seem very inclusive, almost to "Other" === "Album". reosarevok, you seem somewhat in the middle - iirc, audio drama, spokenword, interview, (others?) == Other. And I'm more on the other end; for me, "album" == the typical music store concept of an album of music
2012-05-17 13803, 2012
reosarevok
(do we have a limit for those?)
2012-05-17 13830, 2012
brianfreud
which?
2012-05-17 13852, 2012
reosarevok
"how much 'performing' as opposed to 'plain reading' you need to turn 'audiobook' into 'spokenword' "
2012-05-17 13811, 2012
hawke_1
brianfreud: I mentioned this before to reo, but I tend to think of the primary types as being “how much stuff is there” and the secondary as “what kind of stuff is it”
2012-05-17 13811, 2012
brianfreud
not afaik; I've always just used common sense
2012-05-17 13822, 2012
reosarevok
(thinking of Ginsberg reading Howl here, which was by his own indication a "performance", but it is after all reading a poem out loud)
2012-05-17 13808, 2012
hawke_1
and that fits with how it’s been used historically
2012-05-17 13831, 2012
brianfreud
hawke_1, as I say, if that's your definition, then you might as well get rid of "Other", as you've just defined "album" to mean anything and everything longer than 25 min.
reosarevok: usually, audiobook is a reading of an existing book. spokenword would more likely be works which weren't previously published in written form, or ...
2012-05-17 13810, 2012
hawke_1
brianfreud: I certainly wouldn’t use it as an absolute definition.
2012-05-17 13829, 2012
hawke_1
rule of thumb, grain of salt, etc.
2012-05-17 13834, 2012
brianfreud
hawke_1, yet you're defining primary type simply based on duration.
2012-05-17 13853, 2012
brianfreud
by that basis, you might as well make the field system-determined, rather than an editable field.
2012-05-17 13856, 2012
reosarevok
warp: yeah, but what happens with a work which was written and published as a poem, but also written with oral performance in mind?
2012-05-17 13803, 2012
warp
if it is based on previously published written work, some adaption has been made for audio -- e.g. the spoken text is compiled from different sources and/or performed in a different order compared to the publisher written works.
2012-05-17 13804, 2012
hawke_1
single = 1 or 2 songs, maybe some remixes. EP = 4ish songs, short but more than an album, album = long, more than that
2012-05-17 13823, 2012
brianfreud
I'm suggesting that "album" is more of an overloaded term than simply length.
2012-05-17 13828, 2012
hawke_1
*short but LESS than an album rather
2012-05-17 13855, 2012
warp
reosarevok: if you _know_ it was written with oral performance in mind, and that particular performance is such a performance, then that would be spokenword.
2012-05-17 13857, 2012
brianfreud
It does have at least overtones of being its own secondary type, with the exceptions specifically described as such - ie "live album"
2012-05-17 13803, 2012
reosarevok would also suggest trying to avoid any untranslatable nuances of English while defining album, if at all possible
2012-05-17 13815, 2012
reosarevok
(since we'll want to translate it)
2012-05-17 13818, 2012
hawke_1
well, yeah, it refers to physical vinyl LP gramophone records too. :-p
2012-05-17 13843, 2012
warp should sleep
2012-05-17 13847, 2012
warp
goodnight!
2012-05-17 13851, 2012
reosarevok
night!
2012-05-17 13854, 2012
brianfreud
'night
2012-05-17 13801, 2012
brianfreud
this debate is exactly why the term "RoIO" was coined
2012-05-17 13805, 2012
hawke_1
?
2012-05-17 13823, 2012
hawke_1
Ah
2012-05-17 13824, 2012
hawke_1
yes
2012-05-17 13830, 2012
brianfreud
bootleg collectors, as I said, don't use the term "album". They use "RoIO".
2012-05-17 13831, 2012
reosarevok
The alternate terms ROIO or RoIO, an acronym meaning "Recording of Indeterminate Origin", or "Recording of Independent Origin", and VOIO or VoIO, an acronym meaning "Video of Indeterminate Origin", or "Video of Independent Origin", arose among Pink Floyd collectors trying to clarify the differences between counterfeits, illegally made copies, live bootlegs, and "ROIOs", meaning recordings whose legal status was difficult or even imp
2012-05-17 13832, 2012
reosarevok
ossible to determine
2012-05-17 13858, 2012
kepstin joined the channel
2012-05-17 13815, 2012
brianfreud
yes, and today, it generally means "a bootleg, thus not an album, and not a pirated copy of anything official".
2012-05-17 13825, 2012
MaskMaster joined the channel
2012-05-17 13829, 2012
hawke_1
I still don’t see why you would link the concept of officialness so tightly with the concept of “length as distinct from an EP or single”
2012-05-17 13850, 2012
brianfreud
Esp if bootlegs are hidden by default, it'd be far more useful, I think, to define 3 primary types that do make sense in a bootleg context, rather than trying to map the official music world's concepts to bootlegs
