About my question above: I'm trying to work out what symphonick's idea for release titles is. For example, a disc of chamber works by Schulhoff, performed by two quartets. I can work out the release artists. But is the title just "Chamber Works"? Or "Chamber Works (foo 4tet, bar 4tet)"? Or something else?
Trying to work out what's going on with symphonick's csg proposals.
2012-02-18 04904, 2012
reosarevok
You're not the only one :p
2012-02-18 04916, 2012
rswarbrick
:-) Well, I actually meant how they were being received!
2012-02-18 04943, 2012
rswarbrick
I quite like his proposal about release artist credits. Do you get the feeling there's a groundswell agreeing or vice versa?
2012-02-18 04908, 2012
rswarbrick
I'm trying to make classical edits and would like to know what to aim at...
2012-02-18 04940, 2012
ianmcorvidae
reosarevok: related, what's the status of the classical summit at this point?
2012-02-18 04955, 2012
reosarevok
ianmcorvidae: you should ask ruaok when he's back
2012-02-18 04902, 2012
ianmcorvidae
okay
2012-02-18 04906, 2012
KeLopez has left the channel
2012-02-18 04907, 2012
reosarevok
He hasn't told me anything, which might imply there's nothing to tell
2012-02-18 04923, 2012
reosarevok
rswarbrick: some people disagree with each of his proposals :p
2012-02-18 04925, 2012
ianmcorvidae
mostly was wondering who'd be attending, what the precise goal was, etc.
2012-02-18 04942, 2012
ianmcorvidae
(what decision-making power the summit actually has, too :P)
2012-02-18 04943, 2012
reosarevok
Oh
2012-02-18 04951, 2012
rswarbrick
reosarevok: Yes, frustratingly. Which makes the veto system slightly silly.
2012-02-18 04909, 2012
rswarbrick
RFV 348 is particularly anger-inducing.
2012-02-18 04911, 2012
rswarbrick
GRRRR
2012-02-18 04912, 2012
ianmcorvidae
rswarbrick: CSG has always been the biggest proof of the problems of mb-style's veto system, yeah :/
2012-02-18 04928, 2012
reosarevok
ianmcorvidae: The idea is one community member, one database-person, Rob, a BBC classical person, and at least someone else, maybe a couple people
2012-02-18 04930, 2012
reosarevok
But a small thing
2012-02-18 04940, 2012
reosarevok
Decision-making power... that's for Rob to say, really
2012-02-18 04952, 2012
ianmcorvidae
reosarevok: "community member" meaning "editor", or?
2012-02-18 04907, 2012
rswarbrick
Nah. Someone with mp3s :-D
2012-02-18 04907, 2012
ianmcorvidae
and presumably "database-person" meaning ocharles and/or warp
2012-02-18 04911, 2012
reosarevok
ianmcorvidae: "community member" meaning someone who the community who cares about classical choose as a "envoy" - although seeing they agree to disagree, that's going to be tricky
2012-02-18 04922, 2012
ianmcorvidae
heh
2012-02-18 04929, 2012
reosarevok
ianmcorvidae: and "database-person" being luks if he wants to and ocharles if not, IIRC
2012-02-18 04934, 2012
ianmcorvidae
okay
2012-02-18 04949, 2012
ianmcorvidae
but still, for community member the idea is someone who regularly edits classical at the *very* least
2012-02-18 04906, 2012
rswarbrick
Jumping in to the conversation slightly: Who should currently be credited on classical recordings, by the way? I'm a bit confused about what's been agreed and what's not. As far as I'm concerned the recording artist is a waste of space anyway, but I'd like to be not annoying anyone too much...
2012-02-18 04924, 2012
reosarevok
ianmcorvidae: Well, I would imagine the community who edits classical wouldn't choose a rap editor for it :p
2012-02-18 04932, 2012
reosarevok
rswarbrick: nothing, AFAIK :p
2012-02-18 04947, 2012
reosarevok
rswarbrick: for now, I'd keep following kind-of old CSG
2012-02-18 04948, 2012
rswarbrick
Hmm. Bugger it, I'll use the composer for now then.
2012-02-18 04949, 2012
ianmcorvidae
heh, I was considering suggesting we put empty ACs for classical, since they largely don't apply at all :P
2012-02-18 04904, 2012
ianmcorvidae
since realistically, that's what "using them correctly" would be
2012-02-18 04906, 2012
reosarevok
ianmcorvidae: I was going to mail answering warp exactly that
2012-02-18 04916, 2012
rswarbrick
Please do!
2012-02-18 04919, 2012
ianmcorvidae
haha
2012-02-18 04939, 2012
rswarbrick
Well, more sensibly, this doesn't work with the current UI. And does the database schema allow an AC to be empty?
2012-02-18 04939, 2012
ianmcorvidae
dunno if that's actually allowed, but I'm sure we could add an SPA for [classical] and credit it as " "
2012-02-18 04940, 2012
nikki
rswarbrick: I was saying to reosarevok that maybe we should just list the proposals on a wiki page and get people to vote on it
2012-02-18 04941, 2012
reosarevok
It would also be useful for these mixes with stuff only credited as "intro" I guess
2012-02-18 04912, 2012
ianmcorvidae
yeah, indeed
2012-02-18 04930, 2012
rswarbrick
nikki: Sounds good. Maybe with formatting like "This is what is currently done (so you can't *veto* it). This is proposal A. Proposal B ..."
2012-02-18 04905, 2012
reosarevok
rswarbrick: some people would argue nothing is currently done :p
2012-02-18 04915, 2012
rswarbrick
Well, they're demonstrably wrong.
2012-02-18 04919, 2012
rswarbrick
So should shut up.
2012-02-18 04945, 2012
reosarevok
rswarbrick: that's debatable
2012-02-18 04949, 2012
rswarbrick
Sorry, that came across angry, but the crazily slow progress with CSG is a bit ridiculous.
2012-02-18 04957, 2012
reosarevok
Yeah
2012-02-18 04900, 2012
reosarevok
But it's normal
2012-02-18 04901, 2012
rswarbrick
Well, it's not debatable that people are making edits.
2012-02-18 04913, 2012
reosarevok
Some people want to do stuff for tagging
2012-02-18 04913, 2012
rswarbrick
Moreover, there is a CSG from the old system that most people vaguely follow.
2012-02-18 04922, 2012
reosarevok
Some people want to do stuff for databasing
2012-02-18 04925, 2012
rswarbrick
As such, there *is* a current style in use.
2012-02-18 04930, 2012
reosarevok
Some people... just seem to want to do stuff
2012-02-18 04942, 2012
rswarbrick
Yep. The latter people hopefully have enough info to be able to support the former crowd.
2012-02-18 04953, 2012
ianmcorvidae
heh
2012-02-18 04901, 2012
rswarbrick
ianmcorvidae: ?
2012-02-18 04905, 2012
ianmcorvidae
reosarevok: question, do you know what the approach is supposed to be for the classical summit
2012-02-18 04916, 2012
reosarevok
Not really, tbh
2012-02-18 04923, 2012
ianmcorvidae
hm
2012-02-18 04924, 2012
rswarbrick
Up a narrow twisty path...
2012-02-18 04928, 2012
reosarevok
Vaguely similar to what was done with NGS
2012-02-18 04932, 2012
ianmcorvidae
rswarbrick: well, that's required :P
2012-02-18 04959, 2012
reosarevok
"Put people in a room, find how to make the schema as good as possible, make sure it can deal with edge cases"
2012-02-18 04901, 2012
rswarbrick
ianmcorvidae: I'm really sorry, but I have no idea what that last comment was about. Huh?
2012-02-18 04926, 2012
ianmcorvidae
rswarbrick: re: your 'up a narrow twisty path', which I assume was in response to my question about 'approach' :P
2012-02-18 04937, 2012
rswarbrick
Ah, right. Sorry, I'd forgotten I was being silly :-/
2012-02-18 04912, 2012
reosarevok
rswarbrick: I'd argue we should look at how to best store the info, and then teach Picard and other taggers to deal with what people want for tagging
2012-02-18 04924, 2012
reosarevok
Especially because different people seem to want different things
2012-02-18 04926, 2012
rswarbrick
reosarevok: Yep. Absolutely
2012-02-18 04932, 2012
reosarevok
Including some people who don't seem to know what they want
2012-02-18 04937, 2012
ianmcorvidae
yeah, sounds right
2012-02-18 04939, 2012
rswarbrick
I think I may even have written that to the style list once or twice.
2012-02-18 04945, 2012
rswarbrick
Or maybe three times.
2012-02-18 04948, 2012
rswarbrick
Aaargh.
2012-02-18 04911, 2012
ianmcorvidae
that's what I meant re: approach, mostly -- starting from the assumption that we can shove classical into what we have versus the assumption that probably what we have is wrong and what we need to do to fix it
2012-02-18 04911, 2012
reosarevok
But when I tried to convince people to start by noting what they wanted to see in their tags, so we can see to it in Picard, people mostly ignored it and kept saying the same
2012-02-18 04927, 2012
reosarevok
It feels a bit like talking to fish
2012-02-18 04936, 2012
rswarbrick
Ah, but fish don't email back.
2012-02-18 04947, 2012
ianmcorvidae
monkeys with keyboards, perhaps :P
2012-02-18 04949, 2012
reosarevok
Ok, fish with an automatic mail machine
2012-02-18 04958, 2012
rswarbrick
ianmcorvidae: Which of the two assumptions do you start from?
2012-02-18 04903, 2012
reosarevok
Because the mails seem to be basically the same with other words
2012-02-18 04917, 2012
ianmcorvidae
I think the latter would take more time to come to an answer but is generally better
2012-02-18 04942, 2012
ianmcorvidae
so would probably choose that one
2012-02-18 04942, 2012
rswarbrick
Hmm. But somehow we don't want another NGS-style flag day, right?
2012-02-18 04951, 2012
ianmcorvidae
heh
2012-02-18 04953, 2012
rswarbrick
(in 2015, presumably)
2012-02-18 04901, 2012
ianmcorvidae
there is that potential issue
2012-02-18 04930, 2012
rswarbrick
What information can you see that can't be stored as triples (ie ARs)
2012-02-18 04931, 2012
ianmcorvidae
but still, I think that most of our deadlocks with CSG thus far have revolved around how to fit classical into server features that don't really apply to it (such as ACs, or the plain Artist field pre-NGS)
2012-02-18 04932, 2012
rswarbrick
?
2012-02-18 04940, 2012
rswarbrick
Yes, I completely agree.
2012-02-18 04944, 2012
ianmcorvidae
ARs are fantastic, I wish our whole site was ARs
2012-02-18 04945, 2012
ianmcorvidae
well, no
2012-02-18 04948, 2012
ianmcorvidae
I wish our site was RDF
2012-02-18 04952, 2012
ianmcorvidae
but close enough :P
2012-02-18 04904, 2012
rswarbrick
I deleted the word RDF when typing the previous message :-)
2012-02-18 04905, 2012
nikki
rswarbrick: whether a release is classical or not
2012-02-18 04949, 2012
ianmcorvidae
well, if we allowed rels to text/boolean then we could at least *store* the classical/not classical distinction as an AR
2012-02-18 04952, 2012
rswarbrick
nikki: Is the prevailing opinion that this is a yes/no sort of question? In which case, a boolean on each release is easy. But maybe it's more subtle?
2012-02-18 04956, 2012
nikki
(of course, you can tag stuff as classical and get picard to use some classical setting based on that)
2012-02-18 04900, 2012
ianmcorvidae
defining what that is, though, that's certainly hard
2012-02-18 04910, 2012
nikki
rswarbrick: black and white in musicbrainz? no way! :P
2012-02-18 04913, 2012
rswarbrick
ianmcorvidae: I disagree. Classical follows the CSG. The rest doesn't.
2012-02-18 04940, 2012
rswarbrick
Similarly, "film music" follows the film music style guide (if there is one) etc.
2012-02-18 04959, 2012
rswarbrick
Then there are problems on the overlaps, but hopefully not too difficult ones.
2012-02-18 04959, 2012
ianmcorvidae
well, sure, but sometimes it's useful to partially apply CSG -- especially when particular works cross the classical vs. everything else divide
2012-02-18 04916, 2012
rswarbrick
Ahah. In which case, where does it actually make sense to store "classical"?
2012-02-18 04925, 2012
ianmcorvidae
yeah, that's the question
2012-02-18 04925, 2012
rswarbrick
(as in, the "this is classical" setting)
2012-02-18 04901, 2012
rswarbrick
Maybe one solution is to have fully classical vs. everything else, where your Kronos Quartet recordings fall in the second camp
2012-02-18 04912, 2012
ianmcorvidae
heh, Kronos Quartet
2012-02-18 04912, 2012
rswarbrick
Then there's hope of getting some sort of progress?
2012-02-18 04920, 2012
ianmcorvidae
perhaps
2012-02-18 04928, 2012
rswarbrick
I'm sitting listening to Kimmo Pojohnen
2012-02-18 04930, 2012
ianmcorvidae
that's one way to define the line: if it's not unambiguously classical, then it isn't classical
2012-02-18 04941, 2012
rswarbrick
Well, maybe it's the only way that has a hope of working.
2012-02-18 04955, 2012
ianmcorvidae
certainly possible; that's the question to answer :)
2012-02-18 04901, 2012
ianmcorvidae
(I certainly don't know the answer)
2012-02-18 04912, 2012
rswarbrick
I realise that you don't speak for the entire project :-D
2012-02-18 04924, 2012
ianmcorvidae
heh, I barely even speak for me, half the time ;)
2012-02-18 04940, 2012
rswarbrick
heh
2012-02-18 04903, 2012
rswarbrick
Maybe a "pre-classical summit" (baroque) would be helpful.
2012-02-18 04908, 2012
reosarevok
rswarbrick, ianmcorvidae: if we want to be able to say "this is classical", yeah, I guess that's the only line
2012-02-18 04913, 2012
rswarbrick
Have interested editors meet up in a pub somewhere...
2012-02-18 04919, 2012
rswarbrick
(in Europe, preferably...)
2012-02-18 04940, 2012
ianmcorvidae never makes it to these summits, >$1000 pub meetups aren't really my thing ;)
2012-02-18 04958, 2012
reosarevok
rswarbrick, not in a pub
2012-02-18 04904, 2012
ianmcorvidae
(but yeah, Europe is usually better -- though it's annoying for *me* it usually means better turnout generally)
