there they seem to credit themselves more, but in http://justament.com/ansamblist it’s back to creditng SV more. anyway, it seems neither part played enough part creating the songs to prefer one to another
(they sometimes do a double tracklist 1-n, 1-n and then I do two)
2012-02-28 05937, 2012
rmunn
Quick classical music question: is there any consensus on whether the same work by the same composer, but with a different performer improvising the cadenza, should count as a different work or the same work?
2012-02-28 05912, 2012
mat_
okay :-)
2012-02-28 05931, 2012
rmunn
E.g. Mozart's Concerto for Piano No. 1 in F major, K. 37: He wrote it with an explicit cadenza section, which means that every performance is going to be somewhat different.
I'm wondering whether to merge these works or not.
2012-02-28 05915, 2012
rmunn
And a related question: should the cadenza credit be on the work, or on the recording?
2012-02-28 05953, 2012
rmunn
My inclination is to say that the work should contain no cadenza credit and all three works should be merged, but the performer should be given a partial composition credit on the recording... except that recordings can't have composition credits.
2012-02-28 05932, 2012
Vorpal joined the channel
2012-02-28 05929, 2012
reosarevok
rmunn: I know some people have started adding cadenzas as separate works
2012-02-28 05941, 2012
reosarevok
But I'm not sure if there's consensus about it, and I can't even remember who they were
2012-02-28 05958, 2012
rmunn
reosarevok: By "adding cadenzas as separate works", you mean one work record for K. 37 composed by Mozart, and another work record for "Cadenza to Mozart's K. 37, composed/performed/improvised by Ingrid Haebler"? And then the recording would have "is a performance of" links to those two work records, I suppose. Does that sound about right?
2012-02-28 05919, 2012
rmunn
Because that way to do it hadn't occurred to me before, but it strikes me as exactly the right way to solve the problem. Then there's a single canonical work record for Mozart's K. 37, but the people who improvise cadenzas properly get a composer credit for their work.
2012-02-28 05921, 2012
reosarevok
That sounds about right at least in the Mozart side
2012-02-28 05939, 2012
reosarevok
I'm not sure if an improvisation really counts as a work, but I'm also not sure how improvised those improvisations are
2012-02-28 05904, 2012
reosarevok
But yeah, I think it's all in all a sensible solution
2012-02-28 05935, 2012
CatCat doesn't know wtf a cadenza eve nis
2012-02-28 05938, 2012
CatCat
even is
2012-02-28 05905, 2012
CatCat
also death to all my neigbours. i am living in a constructino site becasue they all want balconies
2012-02-28 05917, 2012
rmunn
At least for Mozart's K. 37 (the one I'm looking at right now), there's a section written just as "Cadenza", with a fermata'd rest written in for the entire orchestra (including the piano, though naturally the piano isn't going to be silent; the rest is just written in because there are no *official* notes written for that section)
2012-02-28 05927, 2012
hrglgrmpf joined the channel
2012-02-28 05916, 2012
rmunn
CatCat: A cadenza is a part of a musical composition where the composer says "At this point, the person playing (insert instrument here) gets to go improvise for a while. When they're done, the rest of the orchestra picks up the piece again." See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadenza for more.
2012-02-28 05947, 2012
CatCat
never mind it's not alowed in front so they do it in back instead. never mind that this will block the the sun even more in the secluded backyard? that we have (just a narrow thing), NEVER MIND that peopel in rthe 1st, 2nd and 3rd are gonna get seriosuly less sun and light
2012-02-28 05919, 2012
CatCat
NEVER MIND that it's no point in having a balcony at the backyard i na apartemnt complex when said back yard gets max 3 hours sun, IN THE SUMMER
2012-02-28 05938, 2012
rmunn
CatCat: Heh, I'm living in a tropical climate right now. Blocking the sun sounds GOOD to me at the moment. :-)
2012-02-28 05954, 2012
CatCat
rmunn: uh reall? imporvise imporvise or improvise o nthe themne of the composition
2012-02-28 05914, 2012
CatCat
becase if former iit's no good to use a works
2012-02-28 05922, 2012
CatCat
well i live in norway
2012-02-28 05941, 2012
CatCat
balconies are pretty wasted unless what has them is pretty open
2012-02-28 05910, 2012
CatCat
ie the previous house i lived in, had good balconies
2012-02-28 05955, 2012
rmunn
CatCat: Depends on the piece. The one I'm looking at right now is basically "Improvise whatever you want"; there's absolutely no hints given (other than what the rest of the composition sounds like). It's on page 38 of http://imslp.org/wiki/File:PMLP15347-Piano_Concer… if you want to see it for yourself.
2012-02-28 05928, 2012
rmunn
Although the Wikipedia page does say "Performers rarely improvise cadenzas these days"... meaning that if there's a piece with a cadenza section, the performer will look up what other people have chosen to do with that section, pick one s/he likes, practice it, and perform exactly the same "improvisation" when s/he performs the piece in concert.
2012-02-28 05955, 2012
hrglgrmpf joined the channel
2012-02-28 05900, 2012
reosarevok
Yeah
2012-02-28 05908, 2012
reosarevok
Which makes it look still more coherent to add them as works
2012-02-28 05922, 2012
nikki
rmunn: where are you?
2012-02-28 05924, 2012
CatCat
uuhh, you just assume that I can read notes :P
2012-02-28 05934, 2012
CatCat
thati agree with reo
2012-02-28 05956, 2012
rmunn
nikki: Thailand for now... will be back in Dallas in late April
2012-02-28 05905, 2012
CatCat
I HATE MY EGOSENTRIC SNOBASS HIPSTER NEIGBOURS
2012-02-28 05907, 2012
nikki
ooh
2012-02-28 05909, 2012
CatCat
@HAAAAAAAATE
2012-02-28 05913, 2012
CatCat
wow thailand
2012-02-28 05913, 2012
rmunn
It's 10:00 PM over here right now, I'll probably be heading for bed within the next hour or so
2012-02-28 05906, 2012
rmunn
CatCat: Heh, sorry, I keep forgetting that not everyone learns to read sheet music. Must remember that other people use MusicBrainz besides classical music fans. :-) (And even among classical music fans, there are plenty of people who never learn to read music... but I'd guess that the percentage of those who do read music is probably higher among classical music fans than among a random sample of the general population.)
2012-02-28 05944, 2012
CatCat
rmunn: you make the assumption that the ration of p: likes classical music and P: likes non-classical music doesn't over lap? especially in musicbrainz :P
2012-02-28 05901, 2012
rmunn
CatCat: Not at all. My assumption is that the sets of "likes classical music" and "can read notes" have a higher degree of overlap than many other sets, THEREFORE the chances are that a data point outside set 2 is also outside set 1. :-)
2012-02-28 05931, 2012
rmunn
Not guaranteed, but a decent chance. In your case apparently the proposition is false, though. :-)
2012-02-28 05938, 2012
nikki can read music (fairly basic stuff, at least, it's not like I ever need to) and doesn't listen to classical at all
2012-02-28 05943, 2012
rmunn
Also, there are plenty of people who WOULD like classical music if they got exposure to it, who never get a chance to hear it... non-classical music gets much wider exposure in popular media, in my admittedly limited experience, which means that if you want to hear good classical music, you often have to deliberately seek it out.
2012-02-28 05952, 2012
reosarevok assumes "can read Japanese" and "can read music" also overlap somehow, nikki
2012-02-28 05958, 2012
reosarevok
If only as "can read weird stuff" :p
2012-02-28 05902, 2012
nikki
o_O
2012-02-28 05934, 2012
reosarevok
(well, you need to care for understanding apparently useless stuff to learn both :P(
2012-02-28 05936, 2012
rmunn
How about "can tell you the Unicode codepoint of certain weird characters without needing to look it up?" I'm not *quite* there yet, but I'm getting close...
2012-02-28 05954, 2012
nikki
no :(
2012-02-28 05913, 2012
rmunn
Though in my case, dealing with Unicode weirdness is often part of my job; it's not like I sought out that skill just for fun.
2012-02-28 05954, 2012
nikki
I would recognise some of them, but I can't recall any of them
2012-02-28 05923, 2012
CallerNo6 joined the channel
2012-02-28 05917, 2012
ocharles
hey, nothing weird about sheet music
2012-02-28 05921, 2012
ocharles
it's nice and logical :P
2012-02-28 05945, 2012
kepstin-laptop joined the channel
2012-02-28 05957, 2012
danmichel joined the channel
2012-02-28 05910, 2012
hawke_ joined the channel
2012-02-28 05929, 2012
rmunn
These Unicode characters seem relevant to the discussion, somehow: ♩♪♫♬♭♮♯ (U+2669 through U+266F)
2012-02-28 05934, 2012
mchou joined the channel
2012-02-28 05935, 2012
mchou joined the channel
2012-02-28 05915, 2012
rmunn loves Ubuntu's Character Map program :-)
2012-02-28 05916, 2012
warp
hey, nothing weird about knowing unicode codepoints.
2012-02-28 05935, 2012
warp
rmunn: is that gucharmap?
2012-02-28 05957, 2012
rmunn
warp: Yes
2012-02-28 05937, 2012
rmunn
Also, on the subject of Unicode weirdness, check out the photo at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mojibake#Russian_and… and boggle at the fact that the Russian post office *successfully delivered that package to the intended recipient*. Now that's dedication!
2012-02-28 05953, 2012
warp
so GNOME Character Map program then, to be annoying and pedantic.
2012-02-28 05901, 2012
rmunn
warp: :-D
2012-02-28 05955, 2012
CallerNo6 is in the cadenza-as-a-separte-work camp if it's composed.
2012-02-28 05923, 2012
Tykling joined the channel
2012-02-28 05907, 2012
CallerNo6
I've been thinking that for purely improvised cadenzas, maybe one work "Cadenza for foo (improvised)" that all performances can link to, but I haven't really thought this through (because I rarely do).
2012-02-28 05937, 2012
reosarevok
rmunn: wow
2012-02-28 05947, 2012
reosarevok
They must have been pretty bored
2012-02-28 05955, 2012
CatCat
noo, they were taking their job seriosuly
2012-02-28 05900, 2012
CatCat
unlike post her nowadays
2012-02-28 05913, 2012
CallerNo6
ianmcorvidae: thanks for the link. I think it'll be my first kindle download.
since the original edit didn't provide any references
2012-02-28 05940, 2012
CallerNo6
Ismael, IMO the discogs release should be entered as a new release.
2012-02-28 05947, 2012
Ismael
I bet 99% our is wrong, bc is a very very rare band and (the discogs one) was the first release in about 30 years :-m
2012-02-28 05943, 2012
CallerNo6
... while the "1966" release can be merged, removed or ignored depending on how certain you are.
2012-02-28 05943, 2012
Ismael
Hum
2012-02-28 05948, 2012
Ismael
thanks for the feedback :)
2012-02-28 05916, 2012
CallerNo6
the 1966 does seem like a home-brew (based on a quick google)
2012-02-28 05928, 2012
Noobie joined the channel
2012-02-28 05959, 2012
kepstin-laptop joined the channel
2012-02-28 05933, 2012
CallerNo6 is reading http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk/resources/governanceModels.xml#body.1_div.2
2012-02-28 05904, 2012
ijabz joined the channel
2012-02-28 05948, 2012
CallerNo6 chuckles at, "Many people new to open source make the mistake of thinking they need to provide the widest possible set of tools to allow interested parties to engage in a way that suits them. However, this is usually a mistake."
2012-02-28 05917, 2012
kepstin-laptop
"A mailing list is the only required mechanism for two way communication in an open source project, but there are many other mechanisms that projects are tempted to use. In this section, we'll look at why a mailing list is essential and why everything else is a potential diversion from the core activity of the project."
2012-02-28 05919, 2012
kepstin-laptop
huh.
2012-02-28 05934, 2012
CallerNo6
... and yet here we are
2012-02-28 05940, 2012
kepstin-laptop
it's odd that they don't list any realtime communication methods on that page, I really would have expected a mention of irc channels :)
2012-02-28 05905, 2012
CallerNo6
channel under the sun. They set up mailing lists, forums, IRC channels, Second Life worlds, and more. This is the wrong thing to do."
