(also, voiceinsideyou, what's the common use of the word "song" in NZ? :P)
2012-01-11 01100, 2012
voiceinsideyou
er... I imagine the same as UK or US? or is this a trick question? :D
2012-01-11 01101, 2012
zarlino joined the channel
2012-01-11 01134, 2012
reosarevok
No
2012-01-11 01137, 2012
jesus2099
voiceinsideyou: are youi sure UK=US ?
2012-01-11 01146, 2012
monxton
tbh, I think the debate is the same. Traditionally a song must have voices, but in some sub-cultures a song has come to mean any recorded track.
2012-01-11 01147, 2012
reosarevok
It's mostly to see if it involves them necessarily having lyrics
2012-01-11 01109, 2012
jesus2099
"some sub-cultures" which ones approx.?
2012-01-11 01115, 2012
reosarevok
s/some/most/ (but yeah)
2012-01-11 01127, 2012
reosarevok
(at least in my experience)
2012-01-11 01132, 2012
voiceinsideyou
i think in most English speaking countries song, track and tune are used interchangeably in everyday conversation with normal people - let along distinctions for lyrics/non-lyrics :)
2012-01-11 01105, 2012
jesus2099
wow (._.)
2012-01-11 01109, 2012
voiceinsideyou
but if you go to people who listen to classical... yes they are probably more careful with their use of "song". But I don't know many such people ;-)
2012-01-11 01115, 2012
jesus2099
how unhandy
2012-01-11 01129, 2012
voiceinsideyou
"WOW LISTEN TO DIZ AWSOME BEETHAVEN TUNE BRO"
2012-01-11 01133, 2012
reosarevok
An option would be naming it "Song/Tune" and using a "lyrics" attribute for it :p
2012-01-11 01136, 2012
reosarevok
voiceinsideyou, LOL
2012-01-11 01102, 2012
monxton
Definitely not for people involved in "classical" music. Definitely not for people involved with traditional folk music. Not sure about jazz.
2012-01-11 01104, 2012
jesus2099
reosarevok: for me song or instr. is very different, it shouldn't be an option, it should be different type
2012-01-11 01135, 2012
jesus2099
type:"(sung) song" and type:"instrumental"
2012-01-11 01148, 2012
voiceinsideyou
Yeah, you're technically correct. But then again, what % of MB users have any clue whatsoever what a "recording" vs "work" is?
In folk there are songs and there are tunes. It's a binary divide. Though a set may comprise both, and a set is a single MBz recording related to 1+ works.
anticipated reply: "k, thx, but wot r they're names"
2012-01-11 01153, 2012
PeepoAWAY
I seem to remember a piano piece I used to play entitled "Song Without Words" :)
2012-01-11 01100, 2012
reosarevok
Yeah
2012-01-11 01110, 2012
reosarevok
heh
2012-01-11 01114, 2012
reosarevok
"Classical Wedding Songs" CD-set
2012-01-11 01122, 2012
reosarevok
Air on a G String – J.S. Bach
2012-01-11 01126, 2012
reosarevok
Fur Elise – Beethoven
2012-01-11 01128, 2012
jesus2099
monxton: you mean tune=instr. as I thought?
2012-01-11 01158, 2012
reosarevok
It seems some people would use song for all :p
2012-01-11 01103, 2012
reosarevok
(as in, every single work)
2012-01-11 01135, 2012
voiceinsideyou
reosarevok: any chance of going through the transclusion index and transcluding the new / pages directly? It's kinda "noisy" to look through it at the mo and see stuff like 50974 50974 (MusicBrainz_Picard/Documentation) :/
2012-01-11 01137, 2012
reosarevok
voiceinsideyou or nikki: how the hell did I find the version number of a wikipage?
2012-01-11 01144, 2012
jesus2099
then MB should clearly define words byt explanatory comments IMO and we can have type:"song (vocal piece)" and type:"tune (instrumental piece)"
2012-01-11 01149, 2012
nikki
history tab
2012-01-11 01102, 2012
nikki
it'll be in the url when you click the link for the version you want
2012-01-11 01105, 2012
nikki
other than that, no idea
2012-01-11 01107, 2012
PeepoAWAY
Song is a very general term it would seem. Depends a lot on the person and even their upbringing/education. I know of some people who would say "song" where others would say "track" and even "tune"
2012-01-11 01118, 2012
jesus2099
nikki: I tshanged the wiki page for vietnamese RFC
2012-01-11 01123, 2012
voiceinsideyou
reosarevok: "get wiki versions" on transclusion page shows you current version of a transcluded page
(not too good ATM, but hey, it's linked from the site directly)
2012-01-11 01113, 2012
jesus2099
On Irc Chat
2012-01-11 01140, 2012
jesus2099
ok guys, BBQ
2012-01-11 01142, 2012
jesus2099 has left the channel
2012-01-11 01151, 2012
reosarevok
voiceinsideyou, about those name changes... I thought about it
2012-01-11 01155, 2012
reosarevok
Then I despaired
2012-01-11 01111, 2012
reosarevok
What we need is a "sure, it's fine, rename + set version" one-click link
2012-01-11 01131, 2012
reosarevok wonders how hard that would be to add
2012-01-11 01140, 2012
voiceinsideyou
reosarevok: OK. I'll just do them one by one when i go through a mini transclusion updates spree.
2012-01-11 01109, 2012
reosarevok
voiceinsideyou: I did just transclude most of the ones that did not imply a rename though :)
2012-01-11 01139, 2012
kovacsur
Same artist leading two different bands records two versions of a song (one with each band) at around the same time. Version 1 is released on Band 1's regular album, Version 2 as a bonus track on the Japanese limited edition version of Band 2's album. Are they both just "performances" or is V2 a "cover performance"?
2012-01-11 01157, 2012
nikki
monxton: I wondered when someone would try doing that (re: sharp/flat)
2012-01-11 01124, 2012
kepstin-laptop joined the channel
2012-01-11 01159, 2012
kepstin-laptop joined the channel
2012-01-11 01141, 2012
kepstin-laptop
informal survey of all people in the room I'm in: song means "piece of music" and singing has nothing to do with it :/
2012-01-11 01152, 2012
kepstin-laptop
they were all surprised when I informed them of the official definition
2012-01-11 01139, 2012
monxton
nikki, personally I quite like it
2012-01-11 01127, 2012
reosarevok
kepstin-laptop, heh
2012-01-11 01117, 2012
kepstin-laptop thinks the dictionaries need updating ;)
2012-01-11 01100, 2012
monxton
So we have a set of people who think everything is a song - for whom the work type is redundant, since it must always be song.
2012-01-11 01129, 2012
nikki
can't some of the other work types have lyrics too?
2012-01-11 01157, 2012
kepstin-laptop
one of the people in the room thought that some classical things might not be considered "songs"
2012-01-11 01124, 2012
monxton
and we have another set of people who will think: who are those crazy dozos at MBz who have categorised a tune as a Song.
2012-01-11 01109, 2012
reosarevok
nikki, yes
2012-01-11 01144, 2012
SultS joined the channel
2012-01-11 01145, 2012
monxton
I've just interrogated a sample UK 17-year-old. She said everything on her mp3 player is a Track. On further questioning, she admitted that some people would call all tracks Songs, " .. but they'd be wrong".
2012-01-11 01110, 2012
reosarevok
heh :)
2012-01-11 01157, 2012
nikki wonders if the sample 17 year old is related to you ;)
2012-01-11 01132, 2012
monxton
We, she lives in my house.
2012-01-11 01145, 2012
monxton
c/We/Well/
2012-01-11 01157, 2012
ianmcorvidae
I prefer to think that monxton went out to some public area and accosted someone at random ;)
2012-01-11 01108, 2012
nikki
so we don't know if she picked it up from you or not :P
2012-01-11 01100, 2012
monxton
The aforesaid 17-y-o is now looking over my shoulder, and denies any such influence.
2012-01-11 01139, 2012
kovacsur
heheh
2012-01-11 01151, 2012
monxton blames the parents
2012-01-11 01129, 2012
ianmcorvidae asserts that aforementioned over-shoulder-reader should start editing MB ;)
2012-01-11 01101, 2012
reosarevok
Yes!
2012-01-11 01104, 2012
reosarevok
We're nice people!
2012-01-11 01107, 2012
ianmcorvidae
(well, I suppose that assumes she doesn't already, but)
2012-01-11 01116, 2012
reosarevok
:p
2012-01-11 01128, 2012
ianmcorvidae
we even have one that doesn't totally suck now ;)
2012-01-11 01134, 2012
ianmcorvidae
(hint: as of yesterday)
2012-01-11 01104, 2012
monxton
She does have an account.
2012-01-11 01117, 2012
reosarevok
Good!
2012-01-11 01124, 2012
nikki would be happy to see more girls editing
2012-01-11 01132, 2012
kovacsur
monxton, would you call hip-hop pieces with rapping only (no singing) songs?
2012-01-11 01108, 2012
monxton
Personally yes, I would. OK rapping doesn't have much melody, but it definitely has rhythm.
2012-01-11 01108, 2012
zarlino joined the channel
2012-01-11 01124, 2012
CallerNo6
Also (my pet theory), good hip-hop captures the inherent musicality and cadences of a particular American dialect.
2012-01-11 01148, 2012
CallerNo6 can't speak to non-US hip-hop
2012-01-11 01158, 2012
reosarevok
That being AAVE?
2012-01-11 01122, 2012
CallerNo6
yes
2012-01-11 01154, 2012
reosarevok
monxton: she can still tell her friends to join ;)
2012-01-11 01122, 2012
reosarevok
(especially those who listen to whatever kind of stuff standard 17 year olds listen to nowadays, we might have less of that than we should)
2012-01-11 01134, 2012
reosarevok
Oh, also, monxton: if you're not doing so now, if you edit a "classical" composer and find a decent catalogue of works please link it in the annotation :) (same for ehrgeiz)
2012-01-11 01102, 2012
voiceinsideyou
reosarevok: updated most of the transclusions manually now. 14 left; most are legitimate differences
2012-01-11 01121, 2012
reosarevok
voiceinsideyou, you're an hero
2012-01-11 01123, 2012
voiceinsideyou
turns out my transclusion spree was tonight
2012-01-11 01141, 2012
reosarevok
(a hero? I guess that h counts)
2012-01-11 01101, 2012
nikki
it does count
2012-01-11 01123, 2012
reosarevok
:)
2012-01-11 01153, 2012
ianmcorvidae
the only problem with 'an hero' is the meme that sprang from the phrase :P
2012-01-11 01119, 2012
ianmcorvidae
(well, in american english it's always 'a hero', but :P)
2012-01-11 01128, 2012
Shepard joined the channel
2012-01-11 01122, 2012
monxton
A second 17-y-o (who also lives in my house) says that he wouldn't ever call an instrumental track a song.
2012-01-11 01105, 2012
reosarevok
Your house is a beacon of light in the ignorance :p
2012-01-11 01136, 2012
zazi_ joined the channel
2012-01-11 01150, 2012
monxton
reosarevok: she says that her friends do not share a passion for cataloguing things, and anyway they all use itunes
2012-01-11 01104, 2012
reosarevok
Awwwww
2012-01-11 01142, 2012
reosarevok
She should ask those friends about "song" then :)
2012-01-11 01108, 2012
reosarevok
(to see if the official definition is restricted to the cataloguers)
2012-01-11 01109, 2012
monxton
apparently a FB discussion is taking place right now
2012-01-11 01118, 2012
reosarevok
:D
2012-01-11 01124, 2012
CallerNo6
nice
2012-01-11 01137, 2012
CallerNo6
finally FB is good for something
2012-01-11 01132, 2012
ubsy has left the channel
2012-01-11 01136, 2012
voiceinsideyou
down to 7 :D
2012-01-11 01158, 2012
voiceinsideyou
and fixed the iTunes Guide to some degree of usefulness
2012-01-11 01103, 2012
ehrgeiz
reosarevok: i use klassika.info for work-catalogues. it's in german but rather comprehensive and i haven't spotted any major mistakes there. have not really found anything compareable in english..
2012-01-11 01100, 2012
the_metalgamer joined the channel
2012-01-11 01107, 2012
reosarevok
Hmm, pretty sweet
2012-01-11 01138, 2012
reosarevok
(36 works for the Mexican I'm working at is probably more than everywhere else except the MX gov)
2012-01-11 01124, 2012
outsidecontext joined the channel
2012-01-11 01127, 2012
SultS
is there any order in ISWC numbers? like T-802… being earlier work than T-901…?
2012-01-11 01120, 2012
kepstin-laptop
SultS: I think the first three digits of the ISWC code are assigned to different countries or something
2012-01-11 01135, 2012
kepstin-laptop
but the later digits follow an ordering
2012-01-11 01142, 2012
kepstin-laptop
(the last digit is a check digit)
2012-01-11 01149, 2012
reosarevok
work identifier (9 digits)
2012-01-11 01150, 2012
reosarevok
check digit (1 digit)
2012-01-11 01159, 2012
reosarevok
the numbers do not incorporate any information about the work's region, author, publisher, etc. Rather, they are simply issued in sequence
