Seeing that, would you assume each credit applies to everything that is on top of it?
2012-01-11 01107, 2012
CallerNo6 thinks "instrumental" sounds like a description of a performance, not of a work
2012-01-11 01127, 2012
kepstin-laptop
particularly given that there are instrumental versions of pop songs
2012-01-11 01135, 2012
CallerNo6
"tune" sounds idiomatic to [trad] and jazz
2012-01-11 01146, 2012
CallerNo6
"piece" sounds idiomatic to classical
2012-01-11 01143, 2012
reosarevok
Call it unsong :p
2012-01-11 01106, 2012
kovacsur
call it "none of the above" :p
2012-01-11 01103, 2012
voiceinsideyou1 joined the channel
2012-01-11 01146, 2012
CallerNo6
"composition" sounds to me like a work w/out lyrics but too stuffy
2012-01-11 01108, 2012
reosarevok
"composition" sounds like it applies to everything else too
2012-01-11 01116, 2012
reosarevok
I mean, isn't a sonata a composition?
2012-01-11 01118, 2012
reosarevok
Or a suite
2012-01-11 01119, 2012
kepstin-laptop
composition is what you get as a result of composing.
2012-01-11 01121, 2012
reosarevok
Or whatever
2012-01-11 01134, 2012
CallerNo6
right, but work types (forms) shouldn't be mutually exclusive. Like a sonata is also a duet or whatever.
2012-01-11 01135, 2012
monxton
reosarevok: re: Revueltas: most likely, but not definitely. Need another reference.
2012-01-11 01111, 2012
ruaok joined the channel
2012-01-11 01117, 2012
voiceinsideyou2 joined the channel
2012-01-11 01133, 2012
SultS
I really want some middle step between work and a recording :( If a dj mixed recording (as in not full length) of a song is a partial performance of a work, what does it make a remix / alternate version then…
2012-01-11 01109, 2012
monxton
I know, I was just reporting. It's no good asking 17-y-os what they think and they telling them they're wrong.
2012-01-11 01139, 2012
CallerNo6
monxton, I'm just playing along.
2012-01-11 01119, 2012
CallerNo6
your focus group is awesome, and I never meant to imply otherwise
2012-01-11 01130, 2012
CallerNo6
and besides, this is a descriptivist exercise. Nobody can be wrong.
2012-01-11 01153, 2012
monxton
:)
2012-01-11 01153, 2012
monxton
a late entrant (I happen to know this one's a folkie): It's a TUNE, not an "instrumental", goddamit!
2012-01-11 01137, 2012
reosarevok
:D
2012-01-11 01113, 2012
CallerNo6
that fits my world view for sure
2012-01-11 01131, 2012
CatCat
i agree with tune honestly
2012-01-11 01149, 2012
CatCat
it will be better translated too
2012-01-11 01155, 2012
hawke_ joined the channel
2012-01-11 01137, 2012
murdos
nikki: so, what do you think of my changes to your wikipedia summary script?
2012-01-11 01138, 2012
Leftmost
"tune" carries no connotation of being without vocals for me.
2012-01-11 01129, 2012
reosarevok
"a : a pleasing succession of musical tones : melody"
2012-01-11 01133, 2012
reosarevok
Says merriam-webster
2012-01-11 01145, 2012
CallerNo6
reosomebody consulted an american english dictionary?
2012-01-11 01109, 2012
reosarevok
CallerNo6, I blame OED being closed
2012-01-11 01112, 2012
Leftmost
The tune of a song doesn't refer to the vocals, but "tune" as an indefinite noun is nearly synonymous with "song" for me.
2012-01-11 01125, 2012
reosarevok
(and I having lost my login)
2012-01-11 01126, 2012
Leftmost
OED: A (musical) sound or tone; esp. the sound of the voice
2012-01-11 01141, 2012
Leftmost
A rhythmical succession of musical tones produced by (or composed for) an instrument or voice; an air, melody (with or without the harmony which accompanies it). Now the leading sense.
2012-01-11 01130, 2012
CallerNo6
Leftmost: I've been trying to think of what people actually say. "The next _____ we're going to play is..."
2012-01-11 01106, 2012
Leftmost
"song" is more common, but "tune" would work for me there. It would be a stylistic choice, I think.
2012-01-11 01141, 2012
derwin
it's called 'iTUNES'
2012-01-11 01147, 2012
derwin
I think it's safe to say it's used that way
2012-01-11 01105, 2012
reosarevok
derwin has a point :p
2012-01-11 01126, 2012
CatCat
to be honest, as a non-native, i never set anything to "song" in works, becvasue i just atumoatically assumed that it meant something else
2012-01-11 01138, 2012
CatCat
eg some weird classical ting that was called "song" for some reason
2012-01-11 01147, 2012
hawke_
“tune” has connotations of referring to just the music to me.
2012-01-11 01155, 2012
reosarevok
Well, classical editors certainly use it for classical songs
2012-01-11 01106, 2012
reosarevok
But I think it was originally requested for popular music
2012-01-11 01108, 2012
CatCat
see i have no idea what "song" means
2012-01-11 01110, 2012
reosarevok
by murdos, was it?
2012-01-11 01112, 2012
hawke_
Not that it couldn’t have lyrics, but that we’re talking about the musical part
2012-01-11 01116, 2012
lidel joined the channel
2012-01-11 01127, 2012
CatCat
popular music are called.. uh "hits" :P
2012-01-11 01134, 2012
kovacsur
hawke_, for me it's either that, or it conjurs the image of a raver with glowsticks yelling "TUUUNE"
2012-01-11 01138, 2012
ianmcorvidae
tune has enough people who _don't_ get the connotation of 'without vocals' that it would probably result in bad data
2012-01-11 01141, 2012
CatCat
in norwegian we call it "låt"
2012-01-11 01146, 2012
ianmcorvidae
which is the issue here
2012-01-11 01154, 2012
CatCat
i would translate that with.. tune
2012-01-11 01100, 2012
monxton
All music (I'll give it the benefit of the doubt) HAS a tune. That doesn't mean it IS a Tune.
2012-01-11 01101, 2012
reosarevok
kovacsur, I want to meet your ravers
2012-01-11 01114, 2012
hawke_
CatCat: “popular music” in the sense of “music of the people” rather than “music that a lot of people like”
2012-01-11 01120, 2012
CatCat
cool glowsticks!
2012-01-11 01124, 2012
kovacsur
reosarevok, I'm afraid you might need a time machine
2012-01-11 01145, 2012
murdos
reosarevok: yes, I requested it for popular music. the initial list was only focused on classical
2012-01-11 01154, 2012
reosarevok
kovacsur, I guess I can just wait a few years until it is retro
2012-01-11 01157, 2012
CallerNo6
the dream of the 90s is alive in Oakland, but not /that/ alive
2012-01-11 01159, 2012
reosarevok
murdos, agreed on that point
2012-01-11 01130, 2012
CatCat
hawke_: sorry "popular music" = "the stuff they belt out enmasse wich is to music what macdonalds is to haute cuisine" to me
2012-01-11 01133, 2012
reosarevok
CallerNo6, not that alive? Didn't Mobb Deep just release an EP?
2012-01-11 01140, 2012
Leftmost
hawke_, "tune" only has those connotations when used with the definitive article for me.
2012-01-11 01143, 2012
reosarevok
(sure, east coast, but still)
2012-01-11 01110, 2012
ianmcorvidae
'is a tune' vs. 'is a song' vs. 'is an instrumental' etc. is the only real issue here -- and the fact is many (perhaps most) american english speakers don't distinguish in any way other than style between the first two
2012-01-11 01125, 2012
CatCat
to me calling everything non-classic for "popular music" is as bad as calling all non popular music "classical"
2012-01-11 01134, 2012
reosarevok
CatCat, probably :p
2012-01-11 01145, 2012
ianmcorvidae
'has a tune' or 'the tune' doesn't play into this
2012-01-11 01146, 2012
reosarevok
We just need a way to say we're not talking about classical :)
2012-01-11 01112, 2012
CatCat
most people wouldnt think about "orks" outside of classical either ;)
2012-01-11 01115, 2012
CatCat
works even
2012-01-11 01101, 2012
monxton
until this moment I had never thought about orks, but I am now
2012-01-11 01114, 2012
ianmcorvidae
clearly we need an Uruk-Hai type ;)
2012-01-11 01104, 2012
CallerNo6
doesn't that fall under "filk"?
2012-01-11 01115, 2012
ianmcorvidae
hah
2012-01-11 01152, 2012
bitmap joined the channel
2012-01-11 01111, 2012
CallerNo6
monxton, I've been struggling with how to do [trad] Works for a while. Things like "cover version" and "derivative work" don't seem to apply.
2012-01-11 01124, 2012
hawke_
ianmcorvidae: “is an instrumental” makes the most sense to me, but there’s also “instrumental performance of”
2012-01-11 01146, 2012
ianmcorvidae
yeah, I agree in general
2012-01-11 01149, 2012
hawke_
“is a song” sounds so vague and meaningless though
2012-01-11 01118, 2012
hawke_
and you have the common phrase “to the tune of” which very strongly suggests music and not lyrics
2012-01-11 01119, 2012
ianmcorvidae
perhaps the type should be called "Instrumental Tune"
2012-01-11 01123, 2012
ianmcorvidae
I think that's clear to anyone
2012-01-11 01135, 2012
ianmcorvidae
hawke_: still 'the tune'
2012-01-11 01143, 2012
hawke_
ianmcorvidae: I know, just saying
2012-01-11 01149, 2012
reosarevok
monxton, ping
2012-01-11 01115, 2012
ehrgeiz
just don't set it if it's not a specific work type?
2012-01-11 01130, 2012
reosarevok
ehrgeiz, that means someone will come later and set it to song
2012-01-11 01136, 2012
reosarevok
(which is what some people are trying to avoid)
2012-01-11 01138, 2012
hawke_
ianmcorvidae: Also, even “the tune” is referring to the sequence of notes, not to how they’re produced.
2012-01-11 01150, 2012
monxton
I like to use a Work very loosely for trad. Quite different from how I would for Classical.
monxton, so should all incarnations of the Philharmonia Orchestra of London be merged?
2012-01-11 01122, 2012
monxton
Sigh. Depends how much literalists care whether it was or was not credited as the "New" Philhamonia, and how much conceptualists care that it was essentially the same orchestra.
