it solves the problem of languages where it doesn't make any sense to have   at all, but translators go "wtf is that" and include it
2012-11-15 32040, 2012
nikki
isn't there some css stuff for avoiding wrapping anyway?
2012-11-15 32016, 2012
warp
ianmcorvidae: do you think that would be less of a problem with ? or about the same?
2012-11-15 32047, 2012
nikki
the latter is clearly a space and won't be included by people who know there's no space. nbsp is clearer in that people have more chance of recognising what it is
2012-11-15 32048, 2012
ianmcorvidae
less, because people have some idea what nbsp is
2012-11-15 32051, 2012
warp
(i.e. is it likely that translators do not know html character references at all, or is it likely they don't know the numeric ones but would be familiar with the named ones?)
2012-11-15 32028, 2012
ianmcorvidae
the latter, though ndash vs 70695238345 or whatever it is benefits more
2012-11-15 32046, 2012
ianmcorvidae
if it was &nonbreakingspace; or something they'd be comporable
2012-11-15 32049, 2012
ianmcorvidae
comparable*
2012-11-15 32050, 2012
warp
ianmcorvidae: would it be possible for the tools which extract strings to perform a translation from &xa0; to ?
2012-11-15 32005, 2012
ianmcorvidae
it'd be possible, I suppose
2012-11-15 32014, 2012
warp
ianmcorvidae: and do the reverse transformation in the build step?
2012-11-15 32039, 2012
ianmcorvidae
I almost feel like that's the wrong place though, it'd be better to just have in our source and have the translation system (whether or not it's actually translating to another language) turn to  
2012-11-15 32044, 2012
warp
ocharles didn't want to have these transformations applied at runtime, but I think there is value in doing them, and I expect ocharles will be less opposed to doing this at build time.
2012-11-15 32050, 2012
ianmcorvidae
ah
2012-11-15 32007, 2012
ianmcorvidae
runtime is a bit iffy, yeah, it makes things nicest for contributors and translators though
2012-11-15 32032, 2012
warp
yes. I'm trying to find a workable compromise between the two extremes :)
2012-11-15 32020, 2012
kovacsur joined the channel
2012-11-15 32027, 2012
ianmcorvidae
understood :)
2012-11-15 32032, 2012
Freso
My vote'd be for runtime.
2012-11-15 32045, 2012
ianmcorvidae
honestly, my initial vote is for "do we need the damn things at all?"
2012-11-15 32049, 2012
warp
(it's a shame HTML5 is so very lenient in many ways yet doesn't allow the bits needed to specify character entities when parsing it as xml)
2012-11-15 32054, 2012
Freso
Developer-translators occasionally grep for translations string sin the code.
2012-11-15 32001, 2012
Freso
*strings in
2012-11-15 32020, 2012
Freso
If the string is being changed between source and .pot, that won't work.
2012-11-15 32026, 2012
warp
ianmcorvidae: yes. I like the mdashes and nbsps where we use them correctly.
2012-11-15 32052, 2012
reosarevok
v6lur, ping
2012-11-15 32002, 2012
ianmcorvidae remains unconvinced :)
2012-11-15 32000, 2012
reosarevok
intgr would work too
2012-11-15 32023, 2012
reosarevok
" which of the two "ja" should become "ning"?
2012-11-15 32035, 2012
ianmcorvidae
anyway also, to start the task will be making sure we don't lose translations with what we currently have, which is independent of fixing the underlying problem
2012-11-15 32046, 2012
ianmcorvidae
which hopefully I'll get a chance to do, heh
2012-11-15 32040, 2012
reosarevok
(taking into account "orchestra and choir" are a package inside the full credit)
2012-11-15 32020, 2012
ehrgeiz joined the channel
2012-11-15 32032, 2012
intgr
reosarevok: Doesn't matter, "ja" and "ning" are the same word. You can leave them both "ja".
2012-11-15 32007, 2012
reosarevok
I thought I was supposed to use one of each when there are several levels in an enumeration
2012-11-15 32050, 2012
intgr
It wouldn't clarify anything in this context.
2012-11-15 32051, 2012
v6lur
reosarevok: some would say that ning is a stronger separator, i.e. similarthing1 ja similarthing2 ning differentthing1 ja differentthing2
2012-11-15 32009, 2012
v6lur
i.e. Ülle Ulla ning RAT ...
2012-11-15 32023, 2012
v6lur
but "ja" for both is ok, too
2012-11-15 32054, 2012
reosarevok
Hmm, ok
2012-11-15 32058, 2012
ehrgeiz
> navap: General FYI, according to google webmaster tools, Susumu Hirasawa is the highest ranked artist by number of incomming links from unique domains < He is linked on every WP template page for an muscbrainz artist, guess thats giving him a nice boost
2012-11-15 32058, 2012
reosarevok
I'll leave ja then
2012-11-15 32004, 2012
v6lur
reosarevok: re: "use one of each when there are several levels" -- in literary style, you would :)
2012-11-15 32020, 2012
v6lur
i'm not sure which style is approppriate for MB
2012-11-15 32028, 2012
reosarevok
Neither am I :)
2012-11-15 32007, 2012
v6lur
intgr: it would carify a bit -- namely that the choir is that of the RAT Estonia
2012-11-15 32040, 2012
v6lur
(i mean using "Ülle Ulla ning RAT Estonia ork. ja koor" would)
if CallerNo6 reads the chatlogs: IIRC I deleted the Glenn Gould wiki page because every info on it is on the release page. Unfortunately I cannot verify because this release still causes a 502. And it was a box set not a series anyway, so I think this was ok
2012-11-15 32050, 2012
kurtjx joined the channel
2012-11-15 32059, 2012
drsaunde joined the channel
2012-11-15 32023, 2012
reels_ joined the channel
2012-11-15 32008, 2012
CallerNo6 joined the channel
2012-11-15 32004, 2012
CallerNo6
MClemo: about the Glen Gould, that makes sense, thanks
I seem to recall there being a weird issue a while ago with locales (and multiple names for the same artist). Was any action ever taken on that, to move everything to a "script" rather than "language"?
2012-11-15 32017, 2012
Freso
No.
2012-11-15 32030, 2012
Freso
Also, it's not as simple as that, as sometimes you do want a locale.
2012-11-15 32038, 2012
Freso
(locales are not languages.)
2012-11-15 32019, 2012
belak
Shouldn't there be a way to specify that multiple languages are the same?
2012-11-15 32020, 2012
hawke_1
You mean, that one name applies for multiple locales?
2012-11-15 32027, 2012
belak
Yeah
2012-11-15 32034, 2012
belak
Like, say en_US and en_GB
2012-11-15 32044, 2012
hawke_1
Would be nice, wouldn’t it?
2012-11-15 32058, 2012
hawke_1
But no, there’s no way to do that, other than entering it many many many times
2012-11-15 32004, 2012
belak
Ugh
2012-11-15 32021, 2012
belak
There has to be a better way...
2012-11-15 32018, 2012
hawke_1
Not at the moment, no.
2012-11-15 32022, 2012
nikki
you should only really use en_US and en_GB if the names are specific to those countries
2012-11-15 32041, 2012
Freso
belak: "en_GB" and "en_US" does denote that the languages are the same.
2012-11-15 32048, 2012
Freso
belak: That's the "en" part.
2012-11-15 32028, 2012
Freso
*do
2012-11-15 32017, 2012
kepstin-laptop
applications are generally designed such that if a user requests en_GB and only en is available, they'll get en.
2012-11-15 32008, 2012
ianmcorvidae
we really need to replace our locale system in order to have more control over it
2012-11-15 32023, 2012
ianmcorvidae
there's a number of issues; we're just using a list from some perl module at present
2012-11-15 32021, 2012
Freso
Re: what nikki just mentioned, it'd be nice to have a way to target e.g. an alias at a country regardless of language.
2012-11-15 32009, 2012
Freso
(E.g, Wedlock is known as 105 Owl something in the GB/UK, apparently. And while this may seem to map easily to en_GB - what about sco, cy, ga, ...?)
2012-11-15 32039, 2012
kepstin-laptop wants alias scripts, as well... and thinks he's figured out a way to hack that in.
2012-11-15 32053, 2012
nikki
I liked freso's mul-latn suggestion
2012-11-15 32055, 2012
kepstin-laptop
hmm, I think mul-Latn actually fits in with my idea fine.
2012-11-15 32007, 2012
nikki
what's your idea then? :P
2012-11-15 32035, 2012
kepstin-laptop
use IETF language tags with the general format en-GB-Latn
2012-11-15 32052, 2012
kepstin-laptop
country and script are each optional
2012-11-15 32010, 2012
nikki
that's more or less what we have now
2012-11-15 32025, 2012
kepstin-laptop
yeah, pretty much just that with a script tag stuck on the end.
2012-11-15 32047, 2012
kepstin-laptop
(the script tag is optional in the case where it's the same as the language's standard script)
2012-11-15 32050, 2012
nikki
well, *some* of our entries already have scripts, like chinese
2012-11-15 32057, 2012
Freso
kepstin-laptop: But what if something applies to one script or one country across different languages?
2012-11-15 32031, 2012
nikki
the problem is more the interface
2012-11-15 32031, 2012
kepstin-laptop
freso: I said that I like your mul idea. so mul-GB-Latn and mul-Latn work there :)
2012-11-15 32039, 2012
nikki
right now we generate a list and it's not that flexible
best thing I can think of for the ui is to allow selecting language, country, script separately.
2012-11-15 32014, 2012
kepstin-laptop
where country, script would default to "any country" and "language's standard script"
2012-11-15 32015, 2012
ianmcorvidae
a "commonly used complete locales" interface would be good too
2012-11-15 32025, 2012
Freso
Yeah, that Freso guy did make a good suggestion there.
2012-11-15 32048, 2012
Freso
kepstin-laptop: +1
2012-11-15 32003, 2012
kepstin-laptop notes that the IETF tags have a different way to mark traditional vs. simplified chinese writing that doesn't conflate them with cantonese vs. mandarin or whatnot.
