ojnkpjg: I agree with you...the "feat." should only be used when they are credited as such
2007-05-19 13919, 2007
dabu joined the channel
2007-05-19 13942, 2007
dabu has left the channel
2007-05-19 13902, 2007
BrianFreud
agreed
2007-05-19 13943, 2007
ojnkpjg
ok, i'm glad i'm not on crack.. i thought that was the general guideline regarding feat. these days and i was kind of surprised to see it 0-2
2007-05-19 13903, 2007
BrianFreud
well, they're now 4:2 :P
2007-05-19 13939, 2007
BrianFreud
my sense is, the less we overload the titles, and the more we can use the ARs we have, the better
2007-05-19 13949, 2007
ojnkpjg
yep
2007-05-19 13907, 2007
ojnkpjg
there was just nowhere else for the info originally
2007-05-19 13912, 2007
BrianFreud
I'd actually love to do away with "feat" altogether - seems to me it become obsolete when the AR went in
2007-05-19 13916, 2007
BrianFreud
right
2007-05-19 13919, 2007
drsaunde
although some cases (mostly hip-hop) the "feat." artist are credited in the main track list..and I think those should stay
2007-05-19 13925, 2007
ojnkpjg
yeah, me, too
2007-05-19 13941, 2007
ojnkpjg
i'm ok with it if it's in an official track listing
2007-05-19 13955, 2007
BrianFreud
drsaunde: why? We're still crediting them, but via AR. the liner does it that way cause liners don't have ARs...
2007-05-19 13934, 2007
drsaunde
not liner...the main tracklisting on the back or on the actually CD...happens a lot and those should remain
2007-05-19 13945, 2007
BrianFreud
I'm ok with it, but I still think it'd be nice to get rid of "feat" altogether...
2007-05-19 13904, 2007
BrianFreud
oh, that's what I meant when I said liner - the packaging materials
2007-05-19 13922, 2007
ojnkpjg
for me, it's a matter of prominence
2007-05-19 13934, 2007
ojnkpjg
if the "feat. X" is as prominent in the listing as the rest of the title, i'd leave it
2007-05-19 13935, 2007
drsaunde
well...by liner i that that means the inlay...which is always more detailed
2007-05-19 13936, 2007
BrianFreud
the AR isn't prominent enough?
2007-05-19 13950, 2007
ojnkpjg
if it's an asterisked note, or something, or listed under the title, i'd remove it
2007-05-19 13957, 2007
BrianFreud
ah, I tend to say liner and mean any of the packaging for whatever media :P
2007-05-19 13904, 2007
drsaunde
ojnpjg; agreed
2007-05-19 13935, 2007
BrianFreud
but my question is, liners use (feat. so and so) cause of the limitations of the medium
2007-05-19 13954, 2007
BrianFreud
in a relational database, why not use those relationships and get rid of the (feat)?
2007-05-19 13955, 2007
ojnkpjg
yeah, sometimes
2007-05-19 13905, 2007
ojnkpjg
but sometimes i think they're there intentionally
2007-05-19 13923, 2007
BrianFreud
but you wouldn't say it's part of the title itself, would you?
2007-05-19 13929, 2007
drsaunde
they use feat. to indicated featured artists, artists who aren't featured are listed in the normal credits
2007-05-19 13940, 2007
ojnkpjg
i'm not sure in some cases
2007-05-19 13907, 2007
BrianFreud
wouldn't that be the difference between "artist plays on" and "artist additionally plays on"?
2007-05-19 13933, 2007
ojnkpjg
i've never really understood what the additionally attribute meant
2007-05-19 13934, 2007
drsaunde
no...additional is only used when the credits specify additional
2007-05-19 13937, 2007
BrianFreud
the degree of prominence?
2007-05-19 13954, 2007
seliopou has quit
2007-05-19 13900, 2007
BrianFreud
oh, I always took it as an indication of prominence
2007-05-19 13903, 2007
drsaunde
some credits use the word "additional" to describe a credit...that's the only time additional should be used in MB
2007-05-19 13910, 2007
ojnkpjg
ok
2007-05-19 13925, 2007
srotta
Hmm, that's not the way I've used it.
2007-05-19 13932, 2007
BrianFreud
how do you use it?
2007-05-19 13933, 2007
ojnkpjg
i'm pretty sure i've never used it
2007-05-19 13945, 2007
srotta
I've not seen that kind of restriction anywhere either.
2007-05-19 13953, 2007
drsaunde
i've used it many times..but only when credited as such
2007-05-19 13954, 2007
ojnkpjg
that'd cause it to make sense to me, though
2007-05-19 13959, 2007
ojnkpjg
(drsaunde's explanation, i mean)
2007-05-19 13901, 2007
BrianFreud
There are restrictions like that when it comes to say producer vs co-producer
2007-05-19 13909, 2007
BrianFreud
but I never saw them w/regard to "additional"
2007-05-19 13910, 2007
srotta
So I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who's used it some other way.
2007-05-19 13936, 2007
drsaunde
yeah...co-producer is a big pet peeve of mine..many people use it when there's more than one producer, and that couldn't be more wrong
2007-05-19 13940, 2007
BrianFreud
yup
2007-05-19 13925, 2007
BrianFreud
drsaude: next time you need to win that argument, go to the imdb glossary. They're talking more about video than audio, but they have a great (and concise) definition of the difference.
2007-05-19 13928, 2007
ojnkpjg
that's why i could never make sense of additional: the presence of more than one entity seemed to imply it
2007-05-19 13956, 2007
ojnkpjg
but if it's just a way of duplicating credits on an album, it makes sense
2007-05-19 13934, 2007
drsaunde
alfredsson scores
2007-05-19 13937, 2007
drsaunde
sorry Buffalo
2007-05-19 13939, 2007
BrianFreud
see, I saw it as three levels: main prominence = artist and liner listing as &. feat = "performed on" and low promience = "additionally"
2007-05-19 13946, 2007
BrianFreud
:(
2007-05-19 13930, 2007
BrianFreud
yahoo seems to have lost their feed - still showing 2 seconds into OT
2007-05-19 13947, 2007
srotta
BrianFreud: I think I've used it that way.
2007-05-19 13911, 2007
srotta
BrianFreud: Not more than once or twice, but I've added someone as "additionally guest performed" or something like that.
2007-05-19 13942, 2007
BrianFreud
Would it make sense then, if we theoretically wanted to utterly get rid of "feat", to add a "is featured on" AR?
2007-05-19 13950, 2007
drsaunde
i don't like the whole concept of "guest" that's just as abused as co-producer
2007-05-19 13925, 2007
drsaunde
is the producer a guest? is a long-time contributer a guest? does it really make sense to add anyone as a guest when the main artist is a single person?
2007-05-19 13938, 2007
BrianFreud
I've used it
2007-05-19 13906, 2007
BrianFreud
example: the guy who came in for 2 days out of a 20 day session just to play harp on Something in the Way on Nevermind
2007-05-19 13915, 2007
BrianFreud
he's an additional guest performer
2007-05-19 13922, 2007
drsaunde
well yeah..there are obvious guest situations
2007-05-19 13937, 2007
drsaunde
but there are many which shouldn't be..and are entered as such anyway
2007-05-19 13940, 2007
srotta
I've used it pretty much on live situations.
2007-05-19 13948, 2007
srotta
Where the guest is obviously a guest.
2007-05-19 13916, 2007
BrianFreud
Flea playing with Pearl Jam type of thing
2007-05-19 13929, 2007
drsaunde
yeah...those qualify as obvious (IMHO)
2007-05-19 13934, 2007
srotta
Right.
2007-05-19 13920, 2007
BrianFreud
back to the other a moment - would you think a "is featured on" AR would be useful - it seems needed if "performed on" isn't enough
2007-05-19 13952, 2007
drsaunde
i don't...i'd rather have those in the track title when they are specifically used...mostly for hip-hop in my case
2007-05-19 13919, 2007
srotta
The most annoying thing for me about those ARs is the wording.
2007-05-19 13932, 2007
BrianFreud
well, that seems more a case for tagging - right now we have to have plugins to remove feat. imho, it ought to be an AR, then it can optionally be added
there ought not to be a need to have to remove info from track names - only to allow to option to add it
2007-05-19 13955, 2007
srotta
If "Billy Preston performed Let It Be", then what the hell is it doing on the Beatles discography.
2007-05-19 13958, 2007
drsaunde
an album by producers..the guest rappers are featured and I'd like to seem them on my tracks
2007-05-19 13958, 2007
srotta
8)
2007-05-19 13956, 2007
catgroove
"is featured on" AR <-- OMG YES
2007-05-19 13900, 2007
catgroove wants that
2007-05-19 13901, 2007
catgroove
BADLY
2007-05-19 13906, 2007
BrianFreud
drsaunde: What would be wrong then with something like %title% if(%feat%, %feat%) ?
2007-05-19 13912, 2007
catgroove
the wordign on AR'sareatroucious
2007-05-19 13927, 2007
BrianFreud
then you can have it
2007-05-19 13929, 2007
catgroove
forexample 'has cover' has thereverse 'is coverd by' ??
2007-05-19 13934, 2007
catgroove
should be 'has coverversion'
2007-05-19 13943, 2007
BrianFreud
seems backwards that people have to remove it, in a day when we have an AR system begging to use it
2007-05-19 13935, 2007
catgroove
oneday i'm goignto go overhe enitre AR tree and rewrite the whole shebang
2007-05-19 13942, 2007
catgroove
so that the grammar MAKES SENCE
2007-05-19 13945, 2007
BrianFreud
:)
2007-05-19 13950, 2007
drsaunde
thats hip-hop style...to generally remove them would force hip-hop to have its own guidlines like classical and that would be a nightmare
2007-05-19 13954, 2007
catgroove
and tries to meulate music-liners as much as spoiible
2007-05-19 13957, 2007
BrianFreud
drsaunde:why?
2007-05-19 13916, 2007
BrianFreud
"A is featured on X"
2007-05-19 13921, 2007
catgroove
'yes recording produced' or whatever really means something else than it sounds. but it has that in the text
2007-05-19 13927, 2007
BrianFreud
if you want to tag with feat, you use %title% if(%feat%, %feat%)
2007-05-19 13936, 2007
catgroove
BrianFreud: do you know hip-hop
2007-05-19 13937, 2007
catgroove
?
2007-05-19 13947, 2007
BrianFreud
I know it - not a huge fan, but I know it
2007-05-19 13902, 2007
BrianFreud
but feat isn't just in hip-hop
2007-05-19 13904, 2007
catgroove
i'vrseen all the time on that show before the series I watch come on. it's got 'soem artist feat. some other artist' right in the title
2007-05-19 13912, 2007
catgroove
but especially there
2007-05-19 13918, 2007
catgroove
it shouldn't be remove
2007-05-19 13928, 2007
catgroove
it's never used wiotuth the feat
2007-05-19 13935, 2007
catgroove
(albeit in the *artist* name but..)
2007-05-19 13904, 2007
BrianFreud
right - it's "A featuring B" on "song" - not "A" on "song (feat B)"
2007-05-19 13905, 2007
warp
hm, i think i see it both in track and in artist names.
2007-05-19 13912, 2007
catgroove
warp: yes
2007-05-19 13931, 2007
catgroove
but it shouldn't beremoved then if it's like that
2007-05-19 13946, 2007
BrianFreud
sure - I'm talking though generally, not just hip-hop
2007-05-19 13947, 2007
catgroove
and yesplease I want a 'is featured on' AR
2007-05-19 13955, 2007
catgroove
yes but there is a difference
2007-05-19 13912, 2007
BrianFreud
rock and grunge it's normally on the liner that way just cause the liner has no better way to say it
2007-05-19 13915, 2007
catgroove
in hip hop and all lthat jazz, 'versus' and 'presents' means something else too
2007-05-19 13920, 2007
BrianFreud
right
2007-05-19 13923, 2007
catgroove
not really
2007-05-19 13934, 2007
catgroove
they're in the liner because it's not really a big artist intent thing
2007-05-19 13958, 2007
catgroove
basically rock and grunge and that jazz has a singular 'band' entety
2007-05-19 13910, 2007
catgroove
that entity might change over time ,but the band entity is the band entity
2007-05-19 13912, 2007
BrianFreud
well, when rock and grunge want the same type of credit that hip-hop uses featuring for, they normally have something like "with special guest"
2007-05-19 13915, 2007
catgroove
see Deep purple fex
2007-05-19 13936, 2007
catgroove
howver they might have 'guest musicians' or someone "featured" drums on one track
2007-05-19 13940, 2007
catgroove
that's different
2007-05-19 13953, 2007
catgroove
in hip hop, and trqnce, the artist intent is completely different
2007-05-19 13957, 2007
BrianFreud
right
2007-05-19 13910, 2007
BrianFreud
and nothing says you can't still do it there, if you want to
2007-05-19 13915, 2007
catgroove
it's usually a singular perosn, or 2-3 people, they wanted this guest musican to be 'feat' because he does something special
2007-05-19 13921, 2007
catgroove
like some rapper doing something else
2007-05-19 13923, 2007
BrianFreud
I'm just suggesting an AR for all the cases where that's not really the intent
2007-05-19 13933, 2007
BrianFreud
right
2007-05-19 13954, 2007
BrianFreud
Queen/George Michael example
2007-05-19 13919, 2007
BrianFreud
though who is feat who is always a mess there :P
2007-05-19 13928, 2007
catgroove
or (imaginary example here): take if rap group x has a track where they wanted an opera singer to guess on it? the they have some crazy remixer come down and remix the hell outa everything, they 'fea't the remixer, because that guy did almost asmuch as everyone else
