#musicbrainz

ah

vs LegalNames

legalnames is a misnomer, in any case

isn't this one feature of NGS?

imdb do specify one as 'birth name' if they know it (but it gets no special display on the filmography page)

that's what i'm asking

if it is, then there's no point having yet another argument over the whole deal now

well, that's just a one 'implementation' layer above ARs

not really a NGS thing

if it's not, can it be? in which case... no point having yet another argument (redux)

and if it could be done now, do you see any big problem with it, code wise

lauri: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/NextGenerationSchem... 'The release artist concept'

Question then luks: For performance names and legal names (and whatever other ARs/artists might cause the same person/group to be listed in the database multiple times), when they map to NGS, what impact would it have having them exist in that way, with proper ARs, vs having them all merged back together without those separate artists or ARs?

the problem is that we have two kind of aliases

brianfreud: pretend i am a performer (just go with me)

I have another, anglicised, on my english language birth certificate

i had my name changed when i was 5, when my mother married, by deed poll, to include my stepfather's name

i have been married, and divorced

i have a combination of the above, on my passport from NZ, and a different one on my passport from Sweden

they are _all_ names i'm entirely legally allowed to use, at least in NZ :)

which one would you link my AR's to?

(then you can't travel to US )

well, first, are you doing anything musical to be listed anyhow? ;)

seriously though

assume i did :)

hang on brian. it's agood example.

should I not, because my names are too complicated?

Ok, but here's the difference

(it's not even contrived, it's my real situation :)

terence trent d'arby

Are you performing as any of those names?

is not his real birth name, the name he grew up under, or his current legal name

yes, carlos santana, john mclughlin, alice coltrane

so he's got at least 4, all reasonably legal

ok

cat stevens

So let's say your current legal name is "Jane Doe Smithson"

which one gets the AR's? (cos nobody's looking him up under sainanda maitreya to enter a 1980's compilation album)

And growing up you performed as "Mary Jane Clemson"

anyone who did that muslim/buddhist/hindi name change thing in the 60s or 70s

and then went back in the 80's :)

and currently you perform as "Jane" (no last name, nor are you well known as anything other than "Jane")

lauri: yes!

which one is legal? under the current guideline wording, and proposals to change it, 'birth name' got tossed around... but lots of people change those

Why not have your legal name exist, with the performs as ARs to the 2 performance names, as indicated by the guidelines?

but which one of mine is my legal name?

let's use alice coltrane as an example. because she'll have the spouse & children AR's to boot

i mean, i have two passports with different names on :)

both quite legally

lauri: I'm sure, were you say to be summonsed to court, there would be a singular legal name they would address the summons to?

they'd pick one, sure

which?

but that doesn't make it my only legal name

aren't you forgetting that MB is about artists, not people in general?

if it's a traffic summons, it'd be the one on my car title

no

if it was about immigration, it'd be the one on my passport

if it was cos i didn't pay property tax, it'd be the one on my house deed, i expect

alice coltrane performed as alice macleod, before marrying john coltrane

luks: currently, the guidelines specify that legal names ought to be created and used for all the non-musical info, ARs, birth/death dates, etc.

if it was to testify or be a juror, it'd be probably a common name that isn't exactly any of the above

with a "performs as " AR then linked to the, well, performance name used

BrianFreud: I don't think there is such guideline

lol, I can quote them

the only one is that you shouldn't link two performance names with "performs as"

luks: there is, but it's very ambiguously worded, and was written before AR's really were put into practise

and it's never been rewritten, although we've discussed it plenty

mcleod is her birth name. after john coltrane's death she founded an ashram, changed her name to "By the late 1970s she had changed her name to Turiyasangitananda."

I don't think there is anything about birth/death dates or non-musical info

oh yeah, i would totally look her up under that one

performance names."

i would really like to check back wiki history and see who put that, and when, now that i think about it

and following that, there's a guideline on how to determine what legal name to use.

she recorded and performed as "Turiyasangitananda" -- i have the albums

My point is, these merges may make sense. But they ignore the guidelines, and noone's brought it up on the style list, nor has anyone drafted an RFC.

and that one, has been under heavy ongoing discussion on the mailing lists for ages, because of ... people like me, terence, cat stevens, yllona's very good example there

BrianFreud: where is that?

we HAVE bought it up on the mailing lists

on occasion alice would still perform as alice coltrane

just obliquely, we were first trying to nail down the whole legal name thing, because those guidelines are all predicated on figuring out wtf a legal name is (which is just impossible)

What's wrong with the definition in the wiki? "The birth certificate is the usual place you will find a legal name. However, legal names can be changed at any time (eg by marriage, deed poll etc)."

what's wrong is, read the last ten minutes

ok, then let me ask

that might give you one possible legal name, at one particular point in someone's life

with all the ambiguity, and knowing that "legal name" is a currently debated concept

which just isn't how the world works

aren't these merges premature?

did you see me vote yes on them?

nooo, you didn't, although i'm sure you assume i did

cos guess what: I prefer to nail down the style guidelines first

but: Wille crafoord (the example I gave) - not using all his middle names, doesn't make Wille Crafoord a performance name, it is, by all accounts, including asking him

his real legal name

Lauri: no, you didn't.. but you expressed an opinion: krazykiwi: 2007-06-22 10:51:12 EDT I so dearly want to vote yes on this, but I don't know if my gmail account can handle it, with only about 2Gb spare.

note to self: do not comment on edits in future, it's not allowed

did I say that?

you seem to like to put words in my mouth

what words?

oh your emails are full of assumptions what i'm about, all utterly wrong

correct, you didn't vote. you said you wanted to vote yes

what emails?

I've not made any assumption about you.

i did find it cute you quoting back at me my refrain of 'let's do it properly by RFC, not just ignore guidelines we don't like'

very funny

i'm with yllona

I think you just like to pick fights, and dislike being challenged

lauri: You seem to think I have some grudge against you.

so lukz: anyway, there was a point to all this: is it worth me rfc'ing a modification to that guideline, to modify the language to something softer (in rfc terms: a MAY, not a MUST, i think would defuse it pretty well)

I suggested that perhaps a certain type of edit was bad. I take advice and no's all the time in good favor, often agreeing. You and I disagre on this. Just because I disagree with you, I always dislike being challenged, and I like to pick fights?

or should we wait until NGS, and aim for something like the IMDB's unified 'one person, one page' discography display

can't say anything right now

because as soon as I see huge emails I simple skip them

lol

so I guess I need to read mb-users first

nah, you already got most of it

but 'one person, one page' seems very wrong to me

why?

it should be 'one recording artist, one page'

ok, but that artist, under any name

afx and aphex twins are two different recording artists

-s

no, they aren't :)

yes, they are

lol, ok

they even play different style of musi

luks: but then how would you link them, without also a legalname artist? who is the performance name for who?

c

i know they do

BrianFreud: I wouldn't

but they're still one person, and each release would have the appropriate credits on it

there we agree

the only way I can think if is the discogs way, which is extremly stupid

luks: how about

Richard James

.... as AFX (tree of those releases)

BrianFreud: link each everything to everything

.... as Aphex Twin (tree of those releases)

er, -each

... as Any other name he comes up with

luks: ie, relationshipcluster it all and ignore that there's a simpler way to do it :)

.... is also known as (any other aliases he's used for production, remixing, etc, I know there are some)

yes

lauri: that's exactly how we do it now

AFX <---performs as--- Richard James ---performs as---> Aphex Twin

all on one page, no it isn't