I guess the question is if we want to track disc artists (like now), release artists or both
2008-07-10 19236, 2008
outsidecontext
don't know. in my example it would surely be appropriate to credit the release as a whole to candlemass, but have a different disc artist for the bonus disc
2008-07-10 19210, 2008
Kerensky97
How would it change for tracking release artists?
2008-07-10 19246, 2008
Kerensky97
I'd like to see a way to link them together through an AR or something, but beyond that I don't see much to change.
2008-07-10 19258, 2008
luks
I wanted to treat discs like anonymous objects - no title, no credits, just a list of tracks - and then releases which have titles and credited artists
2008-07-10 19238, 2008
Kerensky97
I could see how that would work. I think I would prefer it that way (assuming I'm visualizing this the same way you're thinking).
2008-07-10 19237, 2008
outsidecontext
luks: what about multi-disc compilations or compilations of re-releases?
2008-07-10 19250, 2008
luks
outsidecontext: how it that different?
2008-07-10 19247, 2008
outsidecontext
the release would be credited to multiple artists and such, but you could not tell which credit applies to which disc
2008-07-10 19211, 2008
luks
well, is that important?
2008-07-10 19244, 2008
outsidecontext
yes, i think so
2008-07-10 19249, 2008
luks
you can't get a separate disc in real world anyway (ignoring non-official ways of getting CDs :))
2008-07-10 19254, 2008
Kerensky97
The tracks would still have their specific credited artist right?
2008-07-10 19220, 2008
luks
of course
2008-07-10 19245, 2008
Kerensky97
So both discs (from above) would fall under Candlemass but all the tracks on the bonus disc would have Abstrakt Algebra as the artist.
2008-07-10 19203, 2008
luks
maybe using release artists like "Candlemess / Abstrakt Algebra" would be an acceptable workaround
2008-07-10 19249, 2008
luks
the Abstrakt Algebra disc would be then included in two releases, one by Abstrakt Algebry, one by Candlemess / Abstrakt Algebra
2008-07-10 19249, 2008
outsidecontext
no, guess in this case it would be fine with a release artist candlemass but with all tracks of the second disc credited to abstract algebra
2008-07-10 19209, 2008
luks
by " / " I mean the discogs style of combining artists
2008-07-10 19212, 2008
luks
hm
2008-07-10 19231, 2008
luks
another problem are those 100 CD classical box sets :(
2008-07-10 19234, 2008
outsidecontext
sorry, got a phone call
2008-07-10 19220, 2008
outsidecontext
the only bit of information that would be lost would be that disc 2 is a complete "abstract algebra" release, it was intented as a full album but never got released
2008-07-10 19257, 2008
outsidecontext
i wonder if there are any release level ARs that would make sense for a single disc
2008-07-10 19224, 2008
luks
mastering is one
2008-07-10 19210, 2008
LotR has quit
2008-07-10 19220, 2008
luks
damn this is complicated
2008-07-10 19243, 2008
outsidecontext
remember that "fuzzy AR" discussion :)
2008-07-10 19244, 2008
luks
and people complain MB is already too confusing
2008-07-10 19209, 2008
luks
I can't imagine a simple way to enter this data
2008-07-10 19254, 2008
outsidecontext
me neither. i really like your concept of a multiple disc release from that point of view
2008-07-10 19218, 2008
Kerensky97
I think it can be done but it would be a bit different from the way things are done now. That could be good and bad...
2008-07-10 19223, 2008
outsidecontext
but people will come up with valid cases demonstrating that it can be inaccurate
2008-07-10 19204, 2008
nikki
it's mb, no matter what you propose, someone will eventually find something that doesn't work :P
2008-07-10 19209, 2008
luks
Kerensky97: I'm thinking of changing everything
2008-07-10 19210, 2008
Kerensky97
There are always cases like that.
2008-07-10 19215, 2008
outsidecontext
that for sure :)
2008-07-10 19219, 2008
luks
I don't mind completely different way of editing
2008-07-10 19227, 2008
luks
but I can't think of such way
2008-07-10 19235, 2008
nikki
did you see my pmsg earlier, luks? I never know if people actually receive them
2008-07-10 19257, 2008
luks
nikki: yes, but was busy, sorry
2008-07-10 19206, 2008
nikki
that's ok
2008-07-10 19208, 2008
Kerensky97
Yeah. When I see it drawn out it makes sense. I think when people see how releases, artists, and songs interact it starts to make sense.
2008-07-10 19256, 2008
outsidecontext
luks: how would you have solved the UI issues with your data concept?
2008-07-10 19219, 2008
luks
outsidecontext: I don't know
2008-07-10 19236, 2008
luks
just thinking of the discogs way for now
2008-07-10 19256, 2008
luks
but I think that's far from ideal
2008-07-10 19210, 2008
nikki
would you still have catalogue numbers for the discs?
2008-07-10 19215, 2008
outsidecontext
it would be nice for display
2008-07-10 19222, 2008
luks
no, only for releases
2008-07-10 19226, 2008
nikki
:(
2008-07-10 19252, 2008
nikki
japanese releases often give each disc a catalogue number though
2008-07-10 19224, 2008
outsidecontext
luks: what about a releases in releases concept?
2008-07-10 19235, 2008
LotR joined the channel
2008-07-10 19249, 2008
outsidecontext
you can add an release without tracks but other releases instead
2008-07-10 19257, 2008
luks
I even have a release which has different EAN for the set and different EANs for each disc :(
2008-07-10 19221, 2008
luks
outsidecontext: that's nice in theory, but I'm starting to think it wouldn't work
2008-07-10 19235, 2008
luks
from UI point of view
2008-07-10 19239, 2008
Kerensky97
cat# + EAN could just be made a relationship to the disc. Kind of like moving it down from the release level to the disc level.
2008-07-10 19247, 2008
outsidecontext
it would solve the fact that a disc can be a separate release too
2008-07-10 19251, 2008
nikki
like this release *pulls one off the top of her pile* has EPCE-5559~60 on the spine, EPCE-5559 on the first disc and EPCE-5560 on the second disc
2008-07-10 19211, 2008
luks
outsidecontext: but disc CAN'T be a separate release
2008-07-10 19219, 2008
luks
there might be a different release with only that disc
2008-07-10 19224, 2008
luks
but discs are not releases on their own
2008-07-10 19201, 2008
outsidecontext
brb
2008-07-10 19250, 2008
luks
I don't think any music DB will ever cover all these cases
2008-07-10 19211, 2008
Kerensky97
As long as it covers the majority or most common issues.
the script should contain all the changes made to the DB to get it ready for your new code
2008-07-10 19236, 2008
niklas__
ah ok
2008-07-10 19203, 2008
ruaok
please create that file and check it in. ping me when you're done so I can check it out and run your code
2008-07-10 19214, 2008
niklas__
alright sure
2008-07-10 19219, 2008
ruaok
thx
2008-07-10 19208, 2008
niklas__
so I should create all tables and indexes in there?
2008-07-10 19218, 2008
ruaok
yes
2008-07-10 19221, 2008
niklas__
ok. and collection_info tuples for each user... I think that also should be created?
2008-07-10 19231, 2008
ruaok
no.
2008-07-10 19244, 2008
ruaok
don't create anything until a user wishes to start a collection.
2008-07-10 19255, 2008
niklas__
aha ok
2008-07-10 19251, 2008
tolsen joined the channel
2008-07-10 19239, 2008
outsidecontext
luks: treating discs as dumb objects contained in releases might be the data structure most close to the reality
2008-07-10 19219, 2008
luks
outsidecontext: yeah, but it's wrong anyway
2008-07-10 19227, 2008
luks
they have subtitles, which we have to store
2008-07-10 19237, 2008
luks
we might want to store matrix numbers
2008-07-10 19216, 2008
luks
also, they still have attached discids, so they need to be visible also separately
2008-07-10 19244, 2008
luks
but I think they should not have titles or artist credits
2008-07-10 19201, 2008
outsidecontext
yes, that for sure. but what about a release page showing mainly the tracks grouped by disc, and analog to the track page separate disc pages
2008-07-10 19243, 2008
luks
that's the idea
2008-07-10 19239, 2008
outsidecontext
i think the basic data structure would be correct, and discs could still be extended with separate attributes or ARs if neccesary
2008-07-10 19257, 2008
niklas__
ruaok: should updates for the raw database go under /admin/sql/updates/?
2008-07-10 19214, 2008
ruaok
hmmm
2008-07-10 19221, 2008
luks
(btw, the reason for this discussion is that I'm trying to make "complete NGS" in SQL and do some primitive front end for it)
2008-07-10 19236, 2008
niklas__
or should I create a dir /admin/sql/vertical/rawdata/updates/ or similar?
2008-07-10 19254, 2008
nikki
why wouldn't discs have titles?
2008-07-10 19206, 2008
UncleRemus
drsaunde: Regarding our discussion on MB. I do not think there is a Vaulternative release from that album. Me, and a lot of friends in both Europe and the US, have ordered it from the US on the site you posted and everyone have got a Zappa Records release.
2008-07-10 19215, 2008
luks
nikki: because they don't in reality, do they?
2008-07-10 19222, 2008
outsidecontext
ok, so main focus is on data structure.
2008-07-10 19247, 2008
nikki
I thought quite a few did
2008-07-10 19248, 2008
outsidecontext
why not allow artist ARs and such for discs then?
2008-07-10 19252, 2008
ruaok
niklas__: yes, they should. however, make sure that you put changes to the READWRITE db into a separate file then from the RAWDATA db.
2008-07-10 19203, 2008
ruaok
that is if you make changes to READWRITE.
2008-07-10 19206, 2008
outsidecontext
nikki: aren't those subtitles then?
2008-07-10 19218, 2008
ruaok
and note at the top of the page which DB the script should be run against.
2008-07-10 19222, 2008
luks
outsidecontext: I don't know, it will probably end up that way
2008-07-10 19234, 2008
ruaok
"complete NGS" -- what do you mean by that?
2008-07-10 19247, 2008
luks
the ideal DB schema for MB
2008-07-10 19201, 2008
niklas__
ruaok: ok. but Im not supposed to touch the READWRITE db right?
2008-07-10 19210, 2008
ruaok
how will that differ from the schema diagram that you created post summit 8 ?
2008-07-10 19229, 2008
outsidecontext
luks: i could still imageine the interface relatively easy. for the simple cases just enter releases like today creating a disc in the backrgound, for more complex cases you could edit the single discs
2008-07-10 19230, 2008
luks
ruaok: I don't know yet
2008-07-10 19231, 2008
ruaok
there is no rule for you not touching it.
2008-07-10 19236, 2008
nikki
maybe I'm confused, but if the back cover says CD 1: Foo and CD 2: Bar, I'd call them the disc titles not subtitles of the main title, 'cause the main title can already have subtitles
2008-07-10 19240, 2008
ruaok
if you have reason to, then go for it. :)
2008-07-10 19256, 2008
luks
ruaok: but there are some cases where it doesn't work well
2008-07-10 19212, 2008
ruaok
ah, fixing more edge cases, then?
2008-07-10 19218, 2008
luks
mostly
2008-07-10 19230, 2008
luks
and seeing how it works on actual data
2008-07-10 19233, 2008
ruaok
that's what I got grilled on mostly at summit 9.
2008-07-10 19237, 2008
niklas__
ruaok: ok, but everything in the data model we did should be in rawdata?
