That's not the definition of a release in MB's data model.
2008-03-25 08552, 2008
pbryan
Yes, conceptually, I get it.
2008-03-25 08537, 2008
BrianFreud
actually, in WhatDefinesAUniqueRelease, depending on the exact tracklisting and times of the CDs in the box, it can or can not be a release per the MB definition
2008-03-25 08542, 2008
BrianFreud
that was my point about Gap #1
2008-03-25 08526, 2008
pbryan
So, the argument is, a disc, which otherwise has the same performance, from the same masters, mixed by the same engineers, with the same track listing, and maybe even same discIds, should be considered parts of different releases.
2008-03-25 08537, 2008
BrianFreud
All it would take is one single CD in that 180 CD set to have even a minor tracklist variation from the earlier version, yet somehow that minor single track difference is the difference between whether we consider the box valid to exist or not, according to the WDAUR definition
2008-03-25 08513, 2008
pbryan
s/a disc/discs/
2008-03-25 08533, 2008
BrianFreud
pbryan: In a nutshell, yes.
2008-03-25 08556, 2008
pbryan has difficulty accepting it...
2008-03-25 08514, 2008
BrianFreud
In variant #1, it is a single CD. In variant #2, it is one of many CDs.
2008-03-25 08516, 2008
pbryan
But less than I thought. :)
2008-03-25 08513, 2008
pbryan
So, the criteria from your perspective is what constitutes the release as a whole
2008-03-25 08520, 2008
BrianFreud
yes, if you walk down the list in WDAUR, technically, even a box that consists solely of previously released boxes does hit on each and every one of the criteria as a no.
2008-03-25 08534, 2008
pbryan
If the release as a whole has the same content as another release, it deserves to be considered the same in MB.
2008-03-25 08503, 2008
BrianFreud
But those criteria are designed for the cases where that one point is the decider. My sense is, it means something different when you have to use every single criteria there to get that same "no, they're the same"
2008-03-25 08508, 2008
BrianFreud
yes
2008-03-25 08516, 2008
pbryan
To make this work, properly, from a data model perspective, the release in MB needs to consider that it can include multiple discs.
2008-03-25 08524, 2008
pbryan
The problem in MB is that a disc == release.
2008-03-25 08531, 2008
BrianFreud
that's it exactly - the release *as a whole*. A single disc from within a box is not a release unto itself.
2008-03-25 08539, 2008
pbryan
Take that away, and associate a discid with a range of tracks, and I agree.
2008-03-25 08550, 2008
pbryan
I already do this in my collection.
2008-03-25 08506, 2008
pbryan
10-CD releases show up as tracks 1-150 in my collection.
2008-03-25 08510, 2008
pbryan
Okay, sold.
2008-03-25 08523, 2008
BrianFreud
and I think that was what Lauri was getting at, when she brought in the transl(itera)tion AR
2008-03-25 08543, 2008
BrianFreud
as those too, even more so, are identical - yet different in one important enough way that we list them separately.
2008-03-25 08531, 2008
pbryan
If ultimately a release != disc, I'm with ya.
2008-03-25 08538, 2008
BrianFreud
that's it exactly :)
2008-03-25 08557, 2008
pbryan
That's not the semantics today, but I'm happy to use my imagination. :)
2008-03-25 08558, 2008
BrianFreud tries to find the diagram he wants...
2008-03-25 08522, 2008
pbryan
I've done the mental gyrations already.
2008-03-25 08545, 2008
pbryan
This takes MB into the downloadable releases age nicely too.
it's the difference there between the "album" entity and the "release" entity... though I agree, that is a confusing distinction, until you suddenly get it :)
2008-03-25 08526, 2008
pbryan
toc.tracoffset solves this?
2008-03-25 08528, 2008
nikki
pbryan: the release with track merging stuff is scheduled for may, afaik, changing the guidelines twice in such a short period of time would just confuse people
2008-03-25 08501, 2008
BrianFreud
nikki: agreed, plus the amount of work to unmerge all those releases that do end up merged in the meantime :)
2008-03-25 08505, 2008
pbryan
each medium of "cd" has its trackoffset relative to the release?
2008-03-25 08517, 2008
BrianFreud
something like that
2008-03-25 08521, 2008
BrianFreud
LP side A, LP side B
2008-03-25 08529, 2008
BrianFreud
Cassette side A, side B
2008-03-25 08536, 2008
BrianFreud
8-track layer 1, 2, 3, or 4, etc
2008-03-25 08517, 2008
pbryan
Excellent.
2008-03-25 08555, 2008
pbryan
nikki: makes sense; the more status qou prior to a major change the better.
2008-03-25 08534, 2008
pbryan
Well, thanks again for edumufacating me. :)
2008-03-25 08540, 2008
BrianFreud
though, really, it's no change to say "allow both"; we've done that for a very long time now.
2008-03-25 08501, 2008
pbryan
"hobble along" until the data model changes.
2008-03-25 08503, 2008
BrianFreud
It was when I saw editors who knew better flat out telling someone that he was wrong to enter his box using box set titles, that bugged me :)
2008-03-25 08517, 2008
pbryan
Well, I did see the edit where this was set off.
2008-03-25 08505, 2008
BrianFreud
happen to look at the others in the series, both the adds, and the notes that editor left for why he was renaming a dozen releases? :)
2008-03-25 08554, 2008
pbryan
Nope, I chose to simply imagine those. ;)
2008-03-25 08558, 2008
BrianFreud
lol
2008-03-25 08532, 2008
BrianFreud
when I see stupid things going on, I tend to look through open edits (and closer autos history too) :P
2008-03-25 08537, 2008
pbryan
Okay, well, I'm persuaded that your RFC results in the least amount of short term collateral damage.
2008-03-25 08543, 2008
BrianFreud
that was my hope :)
2008-03-25 08522, 2008
BrianFreud
if we need something added to protect against smaller into larger merging, I'm not against it; I just don't think it's needed - the current wording doesn't seem to guide against that anyhow :)
2008-03-25 08531, 2008
pbryan
Sure, but this will be less common, I expect.
2008-03-25 08504, 2008
BrianFreud
well, I did throw it out while we were brainstorming, so I do understand where leivhe is coming from in worrying about it.
2008-03-25 08545, 2008
BrianFreud
But I think if we simply go with "live and let live" to allow both, then the largest % of people is happy... and "but it's more cluttered!" honestly is never a good reason to not do something in my book :D
2008-03-25 08511, 2008
Amblin- joined the channel
2008-03-25 08534, 2008
pbryan
There will be plenty of duplication on ARs to clean up anyway.
2008-03-25 08548, 2008
pbryan
Some duplicate releases won't be that bad, I presume.
2008-03-25 08511, 2008
BrianFreud
yeah; to be honest, if someone's willing to AR at all, I'm happy.
2008-03-25 08544, 2008
BrianFreud
If they have the single or the box or the original or the remaster or the Korean or the Japanese or the transliteration or whatever - if it makes them that much more likely to add ARs, I'm happy with it.
2008-03-25 08544, 2008
pbryan wants reassurance that best efforts will be made to convert existing ARs to new happy-path data model.
2008-03-25 08501, 2008
pbryan
So as to not lose any of the work being invested.
2008-03-25 08524, 2008
pbryan
Is that feasible?
2008-03-25 08515, 2008
BrianFreud
well, I was the one to kill the only AR we've ever killed... and I can say, I think pretty certainly, anything and everything will always be done to avoid having to kill valid ARs
2008-03-25 08532, 2008
nikki
heh, the "but it's more cluttered!" doesn't work for mb anyway, we have so many slight variations on tracklists (bonus japanese track, bonus uk track, here we felt like rearranging the tracks for no good reason, special edition with ultra limited hidden track, etc)
2008-03-25 08543, 2008
BrianFreud
exactly :)
2008-03-25 08519, 2008
nikki
some of the artists I've worked on were such a pain in the arse thanks to all the slight variants
2008-03-25 08520, 2008
BrianFreud happily embraces the real world, where things ain't ever uncluttered
2008-03-25 08559, 2008
BrianFreud
SBD1a vs SBD1b vs AUD1 vs AUD2 vs AUD3 vs AUD4a vs AUD4b vs PRE-FM vs... lol
2008-03-25 08516, 2008
nikki is currently working on faye wong's releases again - royal pita
2008-03-25 08500, 2008
pbryan
lol
2008-03-25 08536, 2008
pbryan thinks his attempts at encapsulating his entire universe in a conceptual data model may not be as easy as he thought...
2008-03-25 08546, 2008
nikki
there are just over 50 different distinct releases... then there's mainland china versions, hong kong/taiwan versions, japanese versions, pinyin versions, transliterated cantonese versions, transliterated korean versions, simplified chinese versions, traditional chinese versions...
2008-03-25 08505, 2008
BrianFreud
hehe
2008-03-25 08512, 2008
nikki
translated japanese versions, translated english versions...
2008-03-25 08516, 2008
nikki explodes
2008-03-25 08521, 2008
pbryan
Well, given the AR track I'm on, I expect to be entering metadata until 2012.
2008-03-25 08558, 2008
pbryan
So much for a short "get my collection metadata into MB and leave" approach.
2008-03-25 08501, 2008
BrianFreud
I'd be happy just to finish getting my collection added... keep getting distracted with ARs and such :D
2008-03-25 08508, 2008
pbryan
Exactly.
2008-03-25 08508, 2008
nikki
luckily they don't exist for every single release, but it's still complicated when you're trying to find info about something and there's only about 15 different bloody names
2008-03-25 08530, 2008
BrianFreud
pbryan: I started that path a year&1/2 + nearly 4000 releases ago... :D
2008-03-25 08537, 2008
pbryan
Wow.
2008-03-25 08548, 2008
pbryan
And my collection is only 1/8 the size...
2008-03-25 08504, 2008
pbryan
What am I complaining about?
2008-03-25 08507, 2008
BrianFreud
hehe
2008-03-25 08501, 2008
Amblin has quit
2008-03-25 08506, 2008
BrianFreud
man, I should so write a Naxos importer... wish we already had works, so I could actually do it
2008-03-25 08519, 2008
pbryan
So, is there a world record number of edits by a single editor? :)
2008-03-25 08540, 2008
BrianFreud
prob the guy who decided to add 100,000 empty labels to MB all in one day
2008-03-25 08543, 2008
pbryan perversely feels the need for something to strive for...
2008-03-25 08547, 2008
pbryan
lol
2008-03-25 08504, 2008
BrianFreud
strive for 100k edits :)
2008-03-25 08507, 2008
pbryan
lol
2008-03-25 08509, 2008
pbryan
Okay.
2008-03-25 08520, 2008
pbryan gets to work on that.
2008-03-25 08525, 2008
BrianFreud points to the spike in http://musicbrainz.org/generated/plot_count.label.png
2008-03-25 08546, 2008
BrianFreud
I think he was somewhere around the B's when we stopped him
2008-03-25 08555, 2008
pbryan
Wow.
2008-03-25 08501, 2008
pbryan
rofl
2008-03-25 08508, 2008
pbryan
Nice plot.
2008-03-25 08531, 2008
Yllona
BrianFreud: let's revisit your schema when i can easily get to a printer
2008-03-25 08536, 2008
pbryan
So, me adding the New York City phonebook for names of artists ain't a good idea then...
2008-03-25 08519, 2008
ruaok finally finished his taxes
2008-03-25 08552, 2008
BrianFreud
Yllona: not my schema - that's the NGS schema :)
2008-03-25 08526, 2008
Yllona
okay, either way let's revisit when i can get to a printer :)
2008-03-25 08543, 2008
BrianFreud
hmmm, I don't recall the last VA classical release I had where I had to add three whole composers
2008-03-25 08557, 2008
BrianFreud
Johann Julius Sontag von Holt Sombach, Karl Leopold Rollig, and David August von Apell
2008-03-25 08536, 2008
Yllona
on NGS, my point being: "We live, and let live, and look we keep our hands to ourselves"
2008-03-25 08510, 2008
BrianFreud
well, I'd be happy to talk about it, but just wanted to be clear that schema's not something I had anything to do it - it's the result of all ruaok / luks / etc 's work at the last summit; we can talk about it, but I have no power (or desire) whatsoever to change it :)
2008-03-25 08521, 2008
BrianFreud
*s/to do with
2008-03-25 08553, 2008
Yllona
BrianFreud: see my point above :)
2008-03-25 08530, 2008
BrianFreud actually adds a classical release not using CSG, but hopefully with justification :)
2008-03-25 08506, 2008
warp
ruaok: yes, 'misty', as catcat said.
2008-03-25 08518, 2008
nikki
hey warp
2008-03-25 08523, 2008
warp
hi
2008-03-25 08529, 2008
BrianFreud
warp, was it you who was into WARP records?
2008-03-25 08536, 2008
warp
BrianFreud: yes.
2008-03-25 08513, 2008
ruaok
misty it is.
2008-03-25 08524, 2008
ruaok
BrianFreud: what was your suggestion?
2008-03-25 08538, 2008
BrianFreud
?
2008-03-25 08508, 2008
ruaok
for a server name
2008-03-25 08526, 2008
BrianFreud
oh... /me tries to remember
2008-03-25 08535, 2008
BrianFreud
oh, Jem
2008-03-25 08524, 2008
ruaok
from?
2008-03-25 08552, 2008
BrianFreud
Jem and the Holograms
2008-03-25 08554, 2008
BrianFreud
and warp had pointed out that she originally was to have been called Misty :D
2008-03-25 08541, 2008
ruaok
but the misty we already have is different, right?
2008-03-25 08551, 2008
BrianFreud
from pokemon, I think
2008-03-25 08521, 2008
nikki
yes
2008-03-25 08551, 2008
BrianFreud was a little too old for any of the pokemon craze
2008-03-25 08515, 2008
warp
BrianFreud: sure.
2008-03-25 08523, 2008
warp
BrianFreud: how old are you?
2008-03-25 08536, 2008
BrianFreud
30
2008-03-25 08502, 2008
BrianFreud
I was graduating high school when it started getting popular in middle school here
2008-03-25 08526, 2008
BrianFreud
it came just after pogs were popular here, I think
2008-03-25 08504, 2008
warp is 31 and wasn't too old for the pokemon craze :P
2008-03-25 08519, 2008
BrianFreud
lol, maybe it came earlier in Europe
2008-03-25 08551, 2008
warp
i only actually played the original gameboy version though (released 1998 in the US, 1999 in europe)
2008-03-25 08559, 2008
nikki
haha, I remember pogs
2008-03-25 08545, 2008
nikki
my mum's sick of them, she's been emptying her attic and it's got all my old toys in it, and everywhere she looks she finds pogs or tazos or anything else like that
2008-03-25 08551, 2008
BrianFreud
what was that show with the japanese monster movies and the kid heros in aluminum foil costumes?
2008-03-25 08531, 2008
warp
BrianFreud: power rangers?
2008-03-25 08540, 2008
nikki kicks launchbar
2008-03-25 08540, 2008
BrianFreud
yep, that was it :) - for the kids I babysat, it was that, then pogs, then pokemon... and it never left pokemon, it seems
