oh you're fetching everything for that artist, hmm
2009-06-15 16641, 2009
koichirose
yeah, I'm in a foreach
2009-06-15 16654, 2009
Wizzcat
right, well I dunno then, like I said the lib is probably out of date
2009-06-15 16604, 2009
koichirose
my ReleaseEvent has the getDate method
2009-06-15 16624, 2009
Wizzcat
could also be it's trying to fetch the one album without an event
2009-06-15 16648, 2009
Wizzcat
just make sure there is an event before you try to getDate, that way it won't crash on you
2009-06-15 16658, 2009
koichirose
I tried, it returns nothing
2009-06-15 16624, 2009
Wizzcat
on any of the albums?
2009-06-15 16649, 2009
koichirose
seems so
2009-06-15 16604, 2009
koichirose
wait, I'm doing this for now: $events = $rel->getReleaseEvents(); print_r($events);
2009-06-15 16628, 2009
koichirose
and it always prints Array( )
2009-06-15 16634, 2009
Wizzcat
guess it's broken then
2009-06-15 16653, 2009
koichirose
:/
2009-06-15 16623, 2009
Wizzcat
I'd try poking into the getReleaseEvents function, can't be doing that much
2009-06-15 16627, 2009
koichirose
function &getReleaseEvents() { return $this->releaseEvents; }
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blami
blami is now known as gamemaster
2009-06-15 16627, 2009
gamemaster
gamemaster is now known as blami
2009-06-15 16600, 2009
MightyJay
In line with the "If the relationship is applicable to all tracks on a release, put it on all the tracks, rather than on the release" AR guideline: how do you credit producers (ProducerRelationshipType)? Does one produce a track, or a release?
2009-06-15 16634, 2009
MClemo
sometimes it is given per track, sometimes nothing specific in the liners
2009-06-15 16643, 2009
MClemo
for the latter I tend to apply on release level
2009-06-15 16609, 2009
Wizzcat
if you know that only one guy produced the album you may as well use per track
2009-06-15 16637, 2009
MightyJay
I currently have this liner: http://www.cdcovered.org/A/1_4_05/Aghora%20Aghora… . It gives two "general" producers, and 1 co-producer that is specified on a track level. Should I add the everything on track level now? Or the two general on release, and the co producer on track level (which seems a bit weird to me)
2009-06-15 16628, 2009
Wizzcat
judging by the accuracy of mixing credits I assume we can trust producer applies to all tracks, though I'd put executive on release level
2009-06-15 16633, 2009
gioele
MightyJay: I'd say the last
2009-06-15 16655, 2009
MightyJay
ok, thanks
2009-06-15 16649, 2009
MightyJay
oh wait, you both say something else ;)
2009-06-15 16647, 2009
MightyJay
somehow I always imagine a producer being something that you do to an entire release... you go and help a band create an album, not just some tracks... but then again, a lot of albums aren't created in just one studio, with just one producer helping for all the tracks...
2009-06-15 16624, 2009
Wizzcat
look at your average hip-hop album, half the tracks will have guest producers
2009-06-15 16609, 2009
Wizzcat
in many cases it's almost equated with composing, it's quite confusing
2009-06-15 16628, 2009
MightyJay
hehe, I never listen to hip-hop, so I have no clue how those are produced :)
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gnu_andrew
I'd put producers on tracks, especially as you may want to add track relationships to later occurrences of the same track
2009-06-15 16611, 2009
gnu_andrew
I tend to just add release-specific stuff to the release, like who mastered the disc, designed the artwork, compiled the tracklisting, mixed it, etc.
2009-06-15 16618, 2009
gnu_andrew
(as in DJ-mixed)
2009-06-15 16619, 2009
MightyJay
gnu_andrew: yeah, I have a similar method, though I always thought that producer was also a typical release specific role... but apparently I'm wrong :) (well, the more I think about it, the more I see my reasoning is wrong)
2009-06-15 16632, 2009
gnu_andrew
MightyJay, well it definitely isn't for any compilation, mix CD, etc.
2009-06-15 16627, 2009
gnu_andrew
even if each studio album only had a single producer, a greatest hits compilation would probably screw things up
2009-06-15 16659, 2009
MightyJay
yeah, but so far I've only entered edits for studio albums, not compilations. And I always had the idea that a producer sets out to create an album, not tracks. But of course many producers only help out on a few tracks
2009-06-15 16639, 2009
gnu_andrew
MightyJay, what sort of albums?
2009-06-15 16625, 2009
gnu_andrew
in pop music, the artist generally chooses to work with one or more producers
2009-06-15 16638, 2009
MightyJay
well, I typically edit albums of rock/metal bands
2009-06-15 16641, 2009
gnu_andrew
for electronica, the artist usually is the producer
2009-06-15 16656, 2009
MightyJay
so that would fall in the first category I think
2009-06-15 16642, 2009
gnu_andrew
yeah I could see how you would have a producer working with them on the whole album then
2009-06-15 16602, 2009
gnu_andrew
but the relationships should still apply to tracks, as they may occur again elsewhere
2009-06-15 16628, 2009
gnu_andrew
when the next generation MusicBrainz release happens, works will be split out from releases, so this will be more obvious
2009-06-15 16636, 2009
MClemo
lol, I'm so getting tired of doing any merge or remove edit at all
somehow I feel that adding a producer on track level (for pop/rock albums) would give the impression that they only help out on tracks, and stop after the tracks are recorded or something. While I figure they stey around until the mixing/mastering/artwork/whatever is done and the final product is finished
2009-06-15 16634, 2009
gnu_andrew
well if they master the CD, that's a separate relationship at the release level
the releases I've seen producer on have it on the cover rather than in the liner notes so I've always added it to the release itself
2009-06-15 16601, 2009
nikki
but I don't normally add those relationships, and I edit weird japanese stuff, so I probably have no idea how it works for everything else
2009-06-15 16637, 2009
MightyJay
gnue_andrew: yeah true... but I didn't mean they master it themselves. But they oversee the process... As in the producer makes sure all the things are done right. The recording is finished and the producer sends it to the mixer. The mixer mixes it, and hands it back to the producer, who in turn gives it to the master. I always thought of a producer as this kind of general managing person who makes sure everyone is doing their job ;)
2009-06-15 16629, 2009
MightyJay
well of course it totally depends on the genre of music you're in of course... But it seems there's no clear definition on what exactly a producer is or does.
2009-06-15 16643, 2009
MightyJay
ah, this line from wikipedia sums up my thought about a producer, at least in the rock/metal genre:
2009-06-15 16645, 2009
MightyJay
"In the music industry, a record producer has many roles, among them controlling the recording sessions, coaching and guiding the musicians, organizing and scheduling production budget and resources, and supervising the recording, mixing and mastering processes."
2009-06-15 16614, 2009
MightyJay
using that definition, I always thought of a producer being on release level
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MightyJay
however, using the definition in this line from the musicbrainz wiki would indicate a track level AR: "Usually, the producer is responsible for making a recording of an artist's work that is suitable for release."
2009-06-15 16618, 2009
gnu_andrew
MightyJay, yeah it goes even further than that in a lot of cases, the producer creates all the music in many cases
Wizzcat, even more so, the producer is the artist in electronica, extra people are pulled in to add vocals, instruments, etc.
2009-06-15 16632, 2009
gnu_andrew
a lot of modern music I'd define more by its producer than the artist involved
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gnu_andrew
MightyJay, yes but the same one from MB's point of view
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Wizzcat
MightyJay: look at it this way, the producer is the guy that puts things together to create the final product - in electronic music this is practically speaking the only step, there's often no actual instruments involved
2009-06-15 16606, 2009
gnu_andrew
MightyJay, on the page you reference, this is under 'modern production technology'
2009-06-15 16601, 2009
gnu_andrew
MightyJay, some of those roles you mention would actually be not producing, but mastering/managing/mixing
2009-06-15 16611, 2009
gnu_andrew
MightyJay, the MB relationship is the actual task, not the job title in effect
2009-06-15 16627, 2009
MightyJay
Yeah, I can see how a producer is credited in electronic music as such... However, the point I am trying to make is, in rock music, most bands sit down with one or more producers, decide to make an album and start doing that. So they go to a studio, start recording, mixing, eventually mastering. But the producer is often there the entire time to oversee all this. He's kind of the person responsible for there being an album at the end. He coo
2009-06-15 16606, 2009
MightyJay
So he's there during the entire process of recording and releasing the album, from start to finish... Somehow it seems weird to just credit him on track level, as he often helps out with many other things at release level
2009-06-15 16607, 2009
gnu_andrew
MightyJay, yes but that's the job not the actual task of producing
2009-06-15 16635, 2009
MightyJay
ok, but that's how they appear in the liner notes of those albums
2009-06-15 16659, 2009
MightyJay
For example, Bob Rock produced Metallica's St. Anger... and he is credited as such in the liner notes (Produced by Bob Rock)
2009-06-15 16610, 2009
gnu_andrew
yes so he produced all tracks
2009-06-15 16628, 2009
MightyJay
ok, maybe this is a bad example, since he also played bass for that album... but take the black album for example... there I believe he didn't play any instruments, but he did procuce it
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gnu_andrew
looking at http://www.cdcovered.org/A/1_4_05/Aghora%20Aghora… which you posted, I'd add the production and mix credits on the tracks, but add exec. producer, mastered, artwork, etc. at the release level
2009-06-15 16640, 2009
MightyJay
ok... I agree he produced all tracks :) But shouldn't there somehow also be something on release level indicating he also helped out with release-level stuff?
2009-06-15 16658, 2009
gnu_andrew
add a production credit to the release as well if you really want
2009-06-15 16614, 2009
gnu_andrew
but you're really just talking about turning the set of tracks into a CD/vinyl/etc. with the release
2009-06-15 16620, 2009
gnu_andrew
the tracks are the important bit
2009-06-15 16606, 2009
MightyJay
well, it's not so much that I personally "really want" that... I just want to get some more insight into this whole process (and I must say this discussion is really working, so thanks for that! :)
2009-06-15 16624, 2009
gnu_andrew
according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Anger 4 tracks were released as singles, so the same producer would be credited there too, possibly with someone else if there is a B side from a different producer
2009-06-15 16627, 2009
MightyJay
yeah, I guess that's true :)
2009-06-15 16645, 2009
MightyJay
ok, you've all convinced me :) Thank you very much for this discussion. I hope I wasn't too annoying, but it was very informative for me :)
2009-06-15 16614, 2009
gnu_andrew
the problem is the release isn't really the album as a work of art, but a certain set of physical entities released at certain times with the given track listing
2009-06-15 16631, 2009
gnu_andrew
MightyJay, it's ok, it's interesting to see the difference here
2009-06-15 16659, 2009
gnu_andrew
MightyJay, I tend to work on releases where it wouldn't really make sense to have a producer attached to the release
2009-06-15 16607, 2009
MightyJay
yeah, if you take away the tracks from an album, there's really not much left... apart from a booklet and a jewelcase ;)
2009-06-15 16615, 2009
MightyJay
I personally almost only edited rock/metal albums... I never really though about electronic releases (or other releases for that matter... like weird japanese stuff ;)
2009-06-15 16629, 2009
gnu_andrew
get it digitally you don't even have that...
2009-06-15 16640, 2009
MightyJay
heh, that's true
2009-06-15 16644, 2009
MightyJay
maybe it's just a certain mindset... most artists I know usually set out to create an album... so they (and me too) tend to think of the album being most important and individual tracks less so (that's why many such artists were initially against digital distribution since they felt their entire album being an artform or something, and people should get the entire album, not just individual tracks)
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gnu_andrew
MightyJay, very true, we seem to be losing the concept of the album to a large degree
2009-06-15 16629, 2009
gnu_andrew
MightyJay, in electronica, it's all about tracks, many never appear on an album. In pop, it's all about charting singles I guess.
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MightyJay
gnu_andrew: yeah, and in those cases I can totally understand the track-oriented approach. In metal music (which I listen to mainly) it's still very album oriented (only rarely are tracks released without an album). I still buy the physical CD; I never felt right buying just digital, and not having anything physical to touch ;)
2009-06-15 16604, 2009
MightyJay
but it's interesting to see how the music industry is progressing
2009-06-15 16614, 2009
gnu_andrew
or regressing...
2009-06-15 16647, 2009
rfzero
people are listening to more music
2009-06-15 16649, 2009
gnu_andrew
I try to avoid buying things digitally too, mainly because I'm not paying the same price for something of such crappy quality
2009-06-15 16653, 2009
rfzero
that can't be a regress
2009-06-15 16638, 2009
gnu_andrew
rfzero, yes but that's not the industry, that's happening while the industry actually becomes less diverse
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rfzero
the "industry" is struggling to keep alive, it won't be the same in a few years
2009-06-15 16625, 2009
MightyJay
yeah, that's the one thing I never understood... why suddenly with digital releases, everyting has to be encoded in a bad quality with the excuse "you can't hear the difference on your MP3 player"
2009-06-15 16629, 2009
rfzero
i.e. it will die
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gnu_andrew
rfzero, one can only hope
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rfzero
i think the quality issue is simply a demand that didn't happen yet
2009-06-15 16630, 2009
rfzero
it makes no difference to who's selling music
2009-06-15 16654, 2009
rfzero
except for bandwidth costs
2009-06-15 16614, 2009
gnu_andrew
rfzero, yes because the main market for the industry tends to be teenagers and younger who will happily listen to distorted noise out of their mobile phones
2009-06-15 16629, 2009
gnu_andrew
just the same as DVD-A didn't take off
2009-06-15 16642, 2009
gnu_andrew
(thought the proprietary technology didn't help either)
rfzero, yeah there are some, but the dominant ones are iTunes and amazon which do m4a and mp3 respectively
2009-06-15 16653, 2009
sonium
outsidecontext: are there any plans now of merging my wizard project into the main branch?
2009-06-15 16604, 2009
aCiD2
luks: I've updated my edit patch with a custom serializer, can you have a look? I imagine you're going to say it's trying to be too advanced, but I'd still like your feedback :) If you like it I'll clean the patch up
2009-06-15 16634, 2009
outsidecontext
sonium: yes, i wanted to do that after the 0.12 release. but we don't get that out :(
2009-06-15 16652, 2009
sonium
what's the problem with 0.12?
2009-06-15 16650, 2009
outsidecontext
sonium: time. luks is busy, and i was not yet successfull in building a full featured windows release
2009-06-15 16604, 2009
sonium
so the windows release?
2009-06-15 16642, 2009
outsidecontext
if we release a new version there must be a windows build and ideally a mac build, too. everything else does not make much sense
2009-06-15 16627, 2009
outsidecontext
but at least i finally managed to build a windows installer without fingerprinting.
2009-06-15 16607, 2009
sonium
hrm. do you think it would make sense for me to try doing the window build?
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sonium
considering I have never done like this and I'm bad with C stuff
2009-06-15 16650, 2009
outsidecontext
luckily there is not much C stuff :) it's mainly the fingerprinting part that causes problems. do you have visual studio 2005? i tried it with mingw, but vs2005 should be easier
2009-06-15 16657, 2009
aCiD2
if 0.12 is being delayed now, maybe there is time to merge soniums work?
