and I guess the two major points we need to cover are 1: what _is_ a conflict (how do we identify one that needs assistance in resolving) and 2: what do we do once one's identified
2006-10-01 27406, 2006
nightgroove joined the channel
2006-10-01 27407, 2006
yllona
i think we also need to realize that a simple disagreement is not "conflict"
2006-10-01 27408, 2006
krazykiwi
anyone want to start?
2006-10-01 27419, 2006
ruaok waves at nightgroove
2006-10-01 27423, 2006
nightgroove
hi ru
2006-10-01 27423, 2006
ruaok
yllona: agreed.
2006-10-01 27426, 2006
gecks joined the channel
2006-10-01 27428, 2006
krazykiwi
oh god yes, "I disagree" does not mean "I hate you, and the horse you rode in on"
2006-10-01 27430, 2006
yllona
hello mo!
2006-10-01 27439, 2006
nightgroove
hi ylla
2006-10-01 27442, 2006
ruaok
is it a conflict if it impedes forward progress?
2006-10-01 27442, 2006
nightgroove
I agre kiwi
2006-10-01 27418, 2006
nightgroove wishes we didn't have these 'important meetings' when it was his bedtime
2006-10-01 27428, 2006
krazykiwi
I thought you were nocturnal
2006-10-01 27451, 2006
yllona
we need to recognize when some escalates past a disagreement, into something more aggressive
2006-10-01 27458, 2006
nightgroove
I have school 3 days a week and also other life things
2006-10-01 27405, 2006
nightgroove
can't afford to be nocturnal anymore
2006-10-01 27440, 2006
yllona
may i suggest a "daygroove" nick, then? :)
2006-10-01 27443, 2006
nightgroove
lol
2006-10-01 27451, 2006
nightgroove
you may
2006-10-01 27458, 2006
yalaforge joined the channel
2006-10-01 27405, 2006
nightgroove
nightgroove is now known as daygroove
2006-10-01 27412, 2006
ruaok waves at yalaforge
2006-10-01 27418, 2006
daygroove waves also
2006-10-01 27419, 2006
yalaforge
hey rob, hey all
2006-10-01 27435, 2006
krazykiwi
and we might need to consider having two systems in place, one to deal with day to day MB editing issues, and one to deal with developmental issues
2006-10-01 27449, 2006
daygroove
that sounbds smart
2006-10-01 27455, 2006
daygroove
the two are different
2006-10-01 27457, 2006
yllona
ru: yes a conflict can impede progress, but may also identify a fundamental issue
2006-10-01 27410, 2006
ruaok nods
2006-10-01 27443, 2006
daygroove
sorry for to, but I understand we're getting forums?
2006-10-01 27408, 2006
ruaok
daygroove: yes, luks is working on that.
2006-10-01 27410, 2006
daygroove
they seem like the optium 'help I'm a newbie' or 'what should I do with x edit' type place
2006-10-01 27422, 2006
daygroove
ru: ace
2006-10-01 27440, 2006
krazykiwi
sure, but those aren't conflicts, they're questions
2006-10-01 27444, 2006
yllona
we may also want to differentiate development (incl mods) conflicts from personal conflicts
2006-10-01 27445, 2006
gecks
the problem is that most issues here involve several layers of MBz so one style issue might end up in discussions about development, etc. i don't think you can really do anything about that, everythings just interlinked :)
2006-10-01 27445, 2006
daygroove
exactly
2006-10-01 27400, 2006
yllona
gecks, right
2006-10-01 27410, 2006
daygroove
that sort of just 'help' stuff is what forums can be exelent for
2006-10-01 27430, 2006
daygroove
also because people can feel more at home to talk a bit more lax there, like in the irc
2006-10-01 27438, 2006
yllona
but i think the most detrimental conflicts are the personal ones
2006-10-01 27407, 2006
daygroove
which we want to avoid/and/or break down and turn into a positive argument instead
2006-10-01 27428, 2006
krazykiwi
which raises a problem in identifying those (clearly people get it wrong sometimes, assuming a fairly heated, but basically amicable disagreement is turning personal)
2006-10-01 27439, 2006
yalaforge
a nice example for a conflict is currently going on in mb-automods ...
2006-10-01 27446, 2006
yllona
i would suggest a "agree to disagree" policy, which could help to avoid escalation
2006-10-01 27405, 2006
daygroove
yes, but that doesn't "solve" anthing
2006-10-01 27430, 2006
yalaforge
"agree to disagree" is a necessity. people have too much time on their hands to discuss things endlessly
2006-10-01 27438, 2006
krazykiwi
daygroove: it can, Id give you a great example, but it'd be breaking my own 'let's look forward not backward' suggestion
2006-10-01 27439, 2006
daygroove
that's right
2006-10-01 27455, 2006
daygroove
ok
2006-10-01 27412, 2006
yllona
other than preventing things from getting nasty, no it doesn't solve anything... plus it will allow for a "cooling off" period
2006-10-01 27424, 2006
daygroove
cooling off is important
2006-10-01 27439, 2006
yllona
once someone says "let's agree to disagree" all parties should back down
2006-10-01 27400, 2006
yllona
and not pursue the discussion until later
2006-10-01 27416, 2006
krazykiwi
how would that affect, say, an in progress edit
2006-10-01 27416, 2006
yllona
with a "cooler head" and hopefully some facts or examples to solidify his/her position
2006-10-01 27421, 2006
ruaok
yalaforge: the brianG incident in mb-automods. do you want to elaborate where the problem lies?
2006-10-01 27455, 2006
ruaok assumes that yalaforge means BrianG
2006-10-01 27412, 2006
yalaforge
ruaok: the problem there is, that people disagree on a personal, subjective basis
2006-10-01 27438, 2006
krazykiwi
Maybe: agree to abstain and let the other votes decide? or agree to cancel the edit, and take it up again in a week or (some arbitrary amount of time) on a 'we'll have cooled down by then' basis?
2006-10-01 27446, 2006
daygroove
I cannot, under any circum stance be objective about briang, so i will stay out of that discussion :)
2006-10-01 27455, 2006
yalaforge
the goals of the project is in the background now, unfortunately.
2006-10-01 27405, 2006
ruaok
daygroove: good call.
2006-10-01 27407, 2006
krazykiwi
daygroove: which is the smart thing to do
2006-10-01 27421, 2006
ruaok
yalaforge: agreed.
2006-10-01 27422, 2006
daygroove
tbh i'm just to tired to care about it a lot
2006-10-01 27431, 2006
daygroove
real life is.. to tired
2006-10-01 27438, 2006
daygroove
but that is OT so :)
2006-10-01 27403, 2006
yalaforge
I agree that brian hasn't always been a saint, to say the least, but this thing is getting personal
2006-10-01 27417, 2006
yalaforge
people threatening to leave, forming coalitions etc.
2006-10-01 27437, 2006
yllona
yalaforge: exactly, and it's silly
2006-10-01 27439, 2006
yalaforge
the objective quality of edits is no longer the main focus in this discussion
2006-10-01 27440, 2006
keschte
hi folks
2006-10-01 27445, 2006
yalaforge
hey stefan!
2006-10-01 27457, 2006
yllona
'lo stefan
2006-10-01 27458, 2006
ruaok
I'm starting to think that if people are threatening to leave, they should.
2006-10-01 27458, 2006
keschte
carry on, please :)
2006-10-01 27402, 2006
daygroove
hi kes.. erh chte
2006-10-01 27416, 2006
ruaok
it does no good to make threats. its just rocks the boat for drama sake.
2006-10-01 27416, 2006
yalaforge
ruaok: absolutely. I don't like any form of blackmail
2006-10-01 27448, 2006
yllona
ru: ding! (to use your favorite expression)
2006-10-01 27405, 2006
yalaforge
can we extend the code of conduct in a way to cover this?
2006-10-01 27411, 2006
GoGi has quit
2006-10-01 27421, 2006
gecks
for some reason i had it in my head that i'd had run-ins with brian in he past, but i did a search on all the mods of his that i'd voted no on, and vice versa, and found none, so he gets my yes vote. i may have had run-ins with him on other ppls mods, but that's out of the scope of his election, i suppose.
2006-10-01 27425, 2006
yalaforge isn't sure what exactly that extension would be though
2006-10-01 27426, 2006
krazykiwi
from experience, I've found that most of the time those threats are empty, and when they are not, the person is rarely missed
2006-10-01 27458, 2006
krazykiwi
more often, people get bloody minded and stay around anyway, often with renewed vigour :)
2006-10-01 27459, 2006
yalaforge
krazykiwi: agreed
2006-10-01 27417, 2006
yllona
i admit to abstaining from the briang automod election. i think he does good work, knows quite a bit about music, but does in fact escalate too quickly in a disagreement
2006-10-01 27429, 2006
daygroove
I agree with yllona
2006-10-01 27429, 2006
yalaforge
but still, these threats have most probably changed the result of the election
2006-10-01 27404, 2006
keschte
luks does not talk much, but if he does its always spot-on.
2006-10-01 27408, 2006
daygroove
also i'd like everyone to remember why it took me 5 or so nominations to pass
2006-10-01 27410, 2006
yllona
yalaforge: unfortunately, yes. i see it as a power grab... no one is that important,
2006-10-01 27420, 2006
yalaforge
yup, I read luks mail. very good, as usual
2006-10-01 27453, 2006
ruaok remembers when anarchkyintheuk left
2006-10-01 27458, 2006
yalaforge
daygroove: please, let's not talk about your nomination. that was a weird episode
2006-10-01 27411, 2006
daygroove
yala: why not?
2006-10-01 27421, 2006
yllona
an aberration perhaps?
2006-10-01 27426, 2006
daygroove
hmm? :)
2006-10-01 27446, 2006
krazykiwi
you know, I very nearly nominated brian myself, thinking the very fact we had a pretty darn rough introduction to each other, and got over it, would make such a nomination less contentious, but was a little scared of the reaction
2006-10-01 27412, 2006
yllona
daygroove: aberration == isolated , freaky or weird incident
2006-10-01 27414, 2006
yalaforge
daygroove: please, not
2006-10-01 27430, 2006
daygroove
thanks ylla
2006-10-01 27442, 2006
daygroove
yala: I was just wondering what was so weird about it, that's all ;)
2006-10-01 27459, 2006
keschte
daygroove: you probably don't know the dynamics of meetings yet... :)
2006-10-01 27409, 2006
daygroove
no you're righ, I don't
2006-10-01 27411, 2006
krazykiwi
the fact we're scared of having any conflict, because it seems people always take it personally, is very much why we need some form of resolution process (that, and I seem to come off way more scary and aggressive in email than I mean to, or really am :)
2006-10-01 27418, 2006
daygroove
I'll be quiet, if you think that helps..
2006-10-01 27441, 2006
luks
an incident at anti-incident meeting? :)
2006-10-01 27447, 2006
yalaforge
hey luks :-)
2006-10-01 27449, 2006
luks
hi
2006-10-01 27450, 2006
yllona
so my suggestion, anyone willing to build a faction, threaten to leave the community, etc. is more detrimental than the nomination in question
2006-10-01 27451, 2006
daygroove
hi luks
2006-10-01 27455, 2006
keschte
this is not what i meant... but things side-track too easily :)
2006-10-01 27402, 2006
ruaok
yllona: agreed.
2006-10-01 27415, 2006
SoothingR has quit
2006-10-01 27425, 2006
ruaok
one note about conflict in general: in open source its necessary.
2006-10-01 27441, 2006
krazykiwi
yllona: I agree
2006-10-01 27452, 2006
ruaok
in order to hear many different opionons (which leads a project forward) you have many different personalities.
2006-10-01 27403, 2006
ruaok
and they will clash. c'est la vie!
2006-10-01 27418, 2006
ruaok
the key is to differentiate between good conflict and bad conflict.
2006-10-01 27423, 2006
krazykiwi
ruaok: it should be noted, in open source, most people are entirely willing to _have_ a conflict resolved, and most conflicts aren't very personal at heart
2006-10-01 27426, 2006
daygroove
I agree!
2006-10-01 27434, 2006
yllona
so, has anyone politely discussed with BrianG his style when approaching a disagreement? I'll do it, if it wouldn't be redundant
2006-10-01 27440, 2006
ruaok
I think the factions and threats clearly elevate a good conflict into a bad conflict.
2006-10-01 27447, 2006
daygroove
yllona: go for it
2006-10-01 27449, 2006
krazykiwi
by which I mean, it's a culture of people who are willing to let someone they respect have a final say, and abide by it, even if they still vehemently disagree
2006-10-01 27405, 2006
ruaok
yllona: I dont think it could hurt
2006-10-01 27411, 2006
daygroove nods
2006-10-01 27416, 2006
ruaok
krazykiwi: agreed.
2006-10-01 27439, 2006
krazykiwi
and secondly, they are good at (and used to) being criticized on a technical level, and not generalising that to a personal level, which is actually something most people are not used to
2006-10-01 27443, 2006
ruaok
I'm just trying to frame the context and point out that we need some conflict, but want to steer clear of others.
2006-10-01 27457, 2006
keschte
most of his edits where heads were butted have passed
2006-10-01 27402, 2006
gecks
i think "good" conflicts should be played out unless they aren't going anywhere
2006-10-01 27408, 2006
ruaok is reminded about the critizing a developer article poste
2006-10-01 27409, 2006
ruaok
d
2006-10-01 27420, 2006
keschte
yup, great articles...read them too
2006-10-01 27425, 2006
yalaforge too
2006-10-01 27432, 2006
ruaok
gecks: yup.
2006-10-01 27439, 2006
daygroove
I supposed.. if I got an appologi, I could I dunno, move on
2006-10-01 27446, 2006
ruaok even went out and picked up freakonomics as a result
2006-10-01 27456, 2006
daygroove
freak..onomics?
2006-10-01 27456, 2006
ruaok would like to see that
2006-10-01 27423, 2006
yalaforge
apologies? I don't think that would work. quite a few people would have to apologize
2006-10-01 27427, 2006
krazykiwi
I read their blog, never read the book, they are excellent writers though
