inhouseuk: yep it is why i talk to you guys about that :) i think we share the goal of providing good info about music to the users
2006-05-14 13402, 2006
nikki_ doesn't think tags are good info :P
2006-05-14 13421, 2006
nikki_
they're arbitrary things people have associated with other things
2006-05-14 13446, 2006
MartinRudat
UserErr0r: tags on mb, like tags on last.fm, because last.fm is commercial and might die, while musicbrainz is open and will live (I think that's the general thrust of things...)
2006-05-14 13458, 2006
zorglu1
nikki_: it is a way to sort music in a efficient way. and thus helps users to find music they like. why do you think they are not a good info ?
2006-05-14 13413, 2006
slaad
I think the biggest problem is the subjectiveness of them.
2006-05-14 13420, 2006
nikki_
because it's just as random as picking any other way of sorting them!
2006-05-14 13436, 2006
MartinRudat
zorglu1: because they rely on having a shared meaning for a song being more "orange" or more "punk" than another song...
2006-05-14 13453, 2006
nikki_
and musicbrainz's is a database of music, not a "find music you might like!" thing
2006-05-14 13416, 2006
MartinRudat
..."That's not punk, that's rock" "that's not rock, it's jazz", "it isn't jazz, it's rnb", ...
2006-05-14 13420, 2006
zorglu1
slaad: nikki_: so ok i think i could sumup this arguement as "are they efficient in providing the music i like ?" do you agree ?
2006-05-14 13441, 2006
nikki_
I don't understand that sentence
2006-05-14 13445, 2006
slaad
Nor I.
2006-05-14 13402, 2006
slaad
As to the question of efficiency; They're only efficient if the person who tagged them sees music in the same way.
2006-05-14 13407, 2006
zorglu1
nikki_: slaad: ok the point of a sorting system is to provide the user the relevant info
does not musicbrainz strive to contain hard, factual data about music, not something as soft and changeable as what 'genre' the music is?
2006-05-14 13436, 2006
nikki_
since when was musicbrainz a way of finding new music?
2006-05-14 13444, 2006
zorglu1
they try to answer the question "gimme the stuff i want" from the user
2006-05-14 13404, 2006
inhouseuk
MartinRudat: yes. hard facts, not something that is subjective
2006-05-14 13412, 2006
zorglu1
ah ok
2006-05-14 13421, 2006
zorglu1
so musicbrain want fact only ?
2006-05-14 13440, 2006
zorglu1
this is a policy of musicbrainz "we store facts only" ?
2006-05-14 13453, 2006
Shepard
musicbrainz wants nothing. you can ask what the community wants
2006-05-14 13402, 2006
Shepard
that would split up to a lot of answers though :)
2006-05-14 13426, 2006
MartinRudat
o/` I want to rock with you o/`
2006-05-14 13449, 2006
Shepard
that would be one of them.
2006-05-14 13406, 2006
nikki_ thinks mb has enough bugs and rfes without expanding into another 'find music you like' service when there's already a fully functional one
2006-05-14 13409, 2006
zorglu1
i just try to understand the "accuracy" things
2006-05-14 13413, 2006
zorglu1
nikki_: "not having the time to do it now" is a valid arguement
2006-05-14 13428, 2006
nikki_
it feels like reinventing the wheel even though you've not finishing building a cart to put the wheel on for want of a better analogy
2006-05-14 13430, 2006
zorglu1
"tagging are subjectives and doesnt work" is not
2006-05-14 13441, 2006
zorglu1
just trying to understand.
2006-05-14 13447, 2006
MartinRudat
zorglu1: it's is not possible to be accurate and difinitive on matters of opinion... such as genre, or tags.
2006-05-14 13458, 2006
slaad
Sure it is, zorglu1. If tags are subjective, as they are, it means they're irrelevant.
2006-05-14 13417, 2006
zorglu1
if the "tagging are subjectives and doesnt work" is the problem, i can explain why it is not
2006-05-14 13417, 2006
MartinRudat
...which is why psychology has such a hard time being accepted as hard science, afaik...
2006-05-14 13422, 2006
inhouseuk
zorglu1: the problem is, you might classify a certain song as something different to somebody else.
2006-05-14 13436, 2006
zorglu1
inhouseuk: ok this is the "tagging are subjectives and doesnt work"
2006-05-14 13436, 2006
inhouseuk
everybody has different opinions
2006-05-14 13440, 2006
nikki_
yeah, I can just see some people tagging anything from japan as jpop
2006-05-14 13447, 2006
zorglu1
inhouseuk: i understand that.
2006-05-14 13453, 2006
nikki_
then I'll go looking for jpop and find metal!
2006-05-14 13457, 2006
nikki_ shudders
2006-05-14 13405, 2006
inhouseuk
and it is difficult to store subjective data
2006-05-14 13416, 2006
zorglu1
nikki_: this is the "tagging are subjectives and doesnt work" argument
2006-05-14 13428, 2006
slaad
You can't just say "it doesn't work"
2006-05-14 13436, 2006
nikki_
your argument doesn't work either :P
2006-05-14 13444, 2006
slaad
(The argument, I mean)
2006-05-14 13403, 2006
zorglu1
:)
2006-05-14 13411, 2006
zorglu1
can i ask questions ?
2006-05-14 13417, 2006
nikki_
you just did :P
2006-05-14 13419, 2006
slaad
No! Hah!
2006-05-14 13444, 2006
MartinRudat
I'm fairly certain it goes more along the lines of "Subjectivity involves opinion, and there's enough heated discussion about hard fact as it is..."
2006-05-14 13449, 2006
zorglu1
is this 'only accurate data' a strict policy of musicbrainz ?
2006-05-14 13427, 2006
inhouseuk
no, but the aim is to be accurate where possible
2006-05-14 13435, 2006
zorglu1
ok
2006-05-14 13436, 2006
nikki_
and you can't be accurate about subjective data
2006-05-14 13450, 2006
zorglu1
nikki_: yep
2006-05-14 13416, 2006
slaad
You can, you just have to have everyone agree that I'm right ;)
2006-05-14 13418, 2006
zorglu1
inhouseuk: so this accuracy policy wont be applied to a sorting system.
2006-05-14 13456, 2006
zorglu1
as any sorting system is subjective and no accuracy are possible
2006-05-14 13409, 2006
nikki_
why do we need a "sorting system"?
2006-05-14 13418, 2006
Shepard
zorglu1: to me it's a matter of the size of the community. a community can only handle a certain amount of features. after that you have organisation problems. so if you want to add tags to MB this opens a whole new region and I don't think we can handle that. therefore I'm for letting last.fm handle this. MB cannot handle everything around music
2006-05-14 13448, 2006
inhouseuk agrees with Shepard
2006-05-14 13458, 2006
zorglu1
Shepard: ok this is the "we dont have time/resource to do it"
2006-05-14 13404, 2006
zorglu1
this one is valid :)
2006-05-14 13405, 2006
Shepard
not quite
2006-05-14 13409, 2006
nikki_
to me, the mb community is already about facts, and we like facts and guidelines and all that
2006-05-14 13426, 2006
nikki_
and last.fm is all about the subjective stuff, and they seem happy enough with that
2006-05-14 13442, 2006
zorglu1
nikki_: there are no 'style' in mb ?
2006-05-14 13450, 2006
nikki_
?
2006-05-14 13406, 2006
zorglu1
Shepard: did i misrepresent your idea ?
2006-05-14 13404, 2006
zorglu1
nikki_: did i misundertood what was a 'style moderator' ?
2006-05-14 13428, 2006
zorglu1
is a 'style moderator' somebody who say 'this is rock' or 'this is funk' etcc. ?
2006-05-14 13445, 2006
Shepard
it's not a matter of resources. neither of time. we can add more servers, the community will grow anyways if we add tags so we would have the human resources. but the community would brake up into lots of different groups handling the different aspects and it would be impossible to keep an overview of all that
2006-05-14 13414, 2006
MartinRudat blinks 'style moderator'... is there some document somewhere I should read to know what terminology we're using... or do I just need to pay more attention?
2006-05-14 13434, 2006
nikki_ doesn't know what a style moderator is
2006-05-14 13451, 2006
nikki_
and style in musicbrainz usually refers to how to enter data
Shepard: hmm so it is more to remain focus on a single aspect of it and not to dillute the effort. 'do one thing but do it well' kind of thing ?
2006-05-14 13414, 2006
Shepard
yes
2006-05-14 13427, 2006
Shepard
slaad: no paid workers but ruaok
2006-05-14 13448, 2006
slaad
Yeah, I meant other than ruaok
2006-05-14 13455, 2006
Shepard
nope
2006-05-14 13410, 2006
inhouseuk
zorglu1: the 'style' work the musicbrainz community does is to apply certain guidelines to the data, otherwise you get the mess that is freedb
2006-05-14 13438, 2006
zorglu1
inhouseuk: yep i read a bit about the style concil
2006-05-14 13413, 2006
zorglu1
ok thanks the info guys
2006-05-14 13419, 2006
slaad reads the MusicBrainzBio page
2006-05-14 13433, 2006
zorglu1
i just wanted to know how musicbrainz felts about a tagging system
2006-05-14 13447, 2006
zorglu1
the argument 'do one thing but do it well' is very valid
2006-05-14 13454, 2006
zorglu1
in my opinion
2006-05-14 13446, 2006
MartinRudat
hmm... do we cover a sufficient cross-section of "MusicBrainz" to actually say that we've divined the opinion of the community as a whole?
2006-05-14 13429, 2006
inhouseuk
probably not. But, I'm certain the majority of the community would agree that tags/genres are subjective :)
2006-05-14 13438, 2006
UserErr0r has quit
2006-05-14 13413, 2006
MartinRudat ponders... "poll: Are Tags right for MusicBrainz a) yes b) no c) maybe d) dunno e) bork bork bork!"
2006-05-14 13414, 2006
zorglu1
tags/genre/styles ? :)
2006-05-14 13438, 2006
Shepard
.oO( all the same... )
2006-05-14 13443, 2006
Shepard
martin: e)
2006-05-14 13445, 2006
inhouseuk
MartinRudat: you forgot the answer "What are tags?"
2006-05-14 13447, 2006
MartinRudat thinks that you could sucessfuly substitute, say... Serialization for Style, and keep the intent of the documentation the same.
2006-05-14 13454, 2006
nikki_
grml.
2006-05-14 13415, 2006
inhouseuk
?
2006-05-14 13402, 2006
nikki_
I managed to do that ctrl-s thing in just one screen window
2006-05-14 13411, 2006
nikki_
so I could switch windows but not type in this one
2006-05-14 13420, 2006
UserErr0r joined the channel
2006-05-14 13430, 2006
nikki_
but it seems that if you hammer ctrl-a-q enough, it'll give you it back
2006-05-14 13426, 2006
inhouseuk tries not to hit ctrl-s where possible
2006-05-14 13407, 2006
MartinRudat
inhouseuk: I think "tag! you're it" would be appropriate, too. =)
2006-05-14 13416, 2006
inhouseuk
:)
2006-05-14 13426, 2006
MartinRudat
nikki: ircII? screen?
2006-05-14 13456, 2006
juhae
you could unmap c-s and so eliminate the threat of ever jamming your terminal again ;)
2006-05-14 13427, 2006
nikki_
irssi
2006-05-14 13446, 2006
nikki_
well normally I just hit ctrl-q
2006-05-14 13454, 2006
nikki_
but nooo, it had to be ctrl-a-q
2006-05-14 13450, 2006
inhouseuk
on solaris you used to be able to message a ctrl-s to another user and it would lock their screen
2006-05-14 13453, 2006
MartinRudat ponders a track that has a profusion of conductors... "The BBC Welsh Chorus, feat. conductor: John Hugh Thomas" and "The BBC Welsh Symphony Orchestra, feat. conductor: Robin Stapleton" are both credited for this one track...
2006-05-14 13426, 2006
inhouseuk
chorus and orchestra could have been recorded at different times/locations and then combined in the mix
2006-05-14 13447, 2006
MartinRudat
hmm... John Hugh Thomas is listed as chorus master in the prose... I love consistancy...
2006-05-14 13441, 2006
slaad has quit
2006-05-14 13400, 2006
inhouseuk
"Con stantly using this health torch, it can benefit to your palm, arm and shoulder stretching and blood circulation,so as to let your hands relax and brain clever, hand and brain coor dinate and promote your brain memory and health composition"
2006-05-14 13436, 2006
Joan_W has quit
2006-05-14 13438, 2006
inhouseuk
that is the wording on the packet of the torch I purchased at the computer fair earlier today!
2006-05-14 13400, 2006
nikki_
o_O
2006-05-14 13407, 2006
MartinRudat
...is the torch heavier than the average torch, or something?
2006-05-14 13425, 2006
inhouseuk
it's one of these torches you squeeze to recharge it
2006-05-14 13439, 2006
inhouseuk
no batteries
2006-05-14 13415, 2006
MartinRudat
ah, I've got one of those... it could do with a capacitor, and a regulator... not to mention something more efficient than an incandescent globe...
2006-05-14 13452, 2006
inhouseuk
this one has 3 white LED's
2006-05-14 13456, 2006
MartinRudat ponders... there's a website around of the name 'engrish' I think...
