nechto13: the language will throw me right off... do you have anything in English? I'm pulling things that most can be checked with on IMDB or are at least our common language./
2006-05-12 13224, 2006
wolfsong13
but the way it will change impacts how we should make changes today and we don't' know how it will change
2006-05-12 13247, 2006
wolfsong13
as ruaok has said the NGS still needs to be hammered out
2006-05-12 13206, 2006
wolfsong13
we need to look at this a lil closer
2006-05-12 13230, 2006
wolfsong13
there are inarguably a lot of problems in the db today
2006-05-12 13242, 2006
Nyght
okay, but I can spend all night showing you soundtracks that don't follow soundtrack guide.. because it's not "natural" to list composer... and support this, or you can start digging yourself.. this is broken... it's working against "natural choice"... and yet, my idea is worse? I could care less if the composer is known in truth.. I would rather it be all performing artist, but it seemed that it was composer
2006-05-12 13246, 2006
wolfsong13
they will all need fixing one way or another
2006-05-12 13250, 2006
Nyght
for some reason... one I don't even know why.
2006-05-12 13259, 2006
wolfsong13
well step back a second
2006-05-12 13201, 2006
Nyght
and yet, my idea is worse? I could care less if the composer is known in truth.. I would rather it be all performing artist, but it seemed that it was composer
2006-05-12 13220, 2006
wolfsong13
the last time i checked it was still proposed unless that's changed
2006-05-12 13229, 2006
nechto13
and this is a popular musical we are talking about. i could name a couple of ones that weren't as popular and good luck finding performers for them. either way for some releases it will be a lot easier finding performers than composers and on other ones it would be vice versa
and even if it's official i think what you're proposing to change it to has some loops to close
2006-05-12 13209, 2006
nechto13
Nyght: i don't doubt that there are Disney tracks some credited to performers some to composers. i've seen it myself. but you said it yourself about that it's easier to find performers than composers so you check if it's the artist who performed it on a soundtrack then it should be a composer and if it's not than it's a cover. seems simple enough, unless i'm not getting something
2006-05-12 13224, 2006
MrQwerty joined the channel
2006-05-12 13232, 2006
Nyght
well honestly nechto13, you're out of my language expertise, so I have no chance to find the performers... that's why I hate the japanese files so much.. I can't read it, or write it.
2006-05-12 13236, 2006
Nyght
therefore I can't search for it.
2006-05-12 13226, 2006
Nyght
Great, it's got some loops.. let's figure those loops out wolfsong, and make it better. It's a proposal, because what we're doing doesn't seem to be working out for the database, as you can tell by digging up those multiple albums that don't follow guidelines
2006-05-12 13243, 2006
Nyght
and, I don't feel we should search them all down, because there's nothing stating this is going to be how it's dealt with in the future.
2006-05-12 13237, 2006
nechto13
Nyght: this is another sticking point for me that maybe it wouldn't be that difficult for soundtracks in english but anything that was released in other languages would be very difficult to find performer-wise
2006-05-12 13241, 2006
Nyght
feat. or not feat., seems trivial.. yes, eventually that will be changed too... but, that's a handful, we're talking something that is released in droves every year.. coming in and needing an editor to correct each one, unless someone experieneced with the guidelines put it in in the first place.
2006-05-12 13251, 2006
wolfsong13
Nyght: are you making a new proposal because the current one isn't being followed or are you saying that the current proposal is broken in some way? is the current proposal viable? can it be reworked?
2006-05-12 13232, 2006
Nyght
nechto, put the name of the film in quotes in russian, and then spell out soundtrack in russian, see if you don't find your artists.
2006-05-12 13206, 2006
wolfsong13
all the problems are there because there because we've never had a rule for soundtracks
2006-05-12 13228, 2006
wolfsong13
at all
2006-05-12 13228, 2006
Nyght
the current proposal in my opinion is very backwords to what comes naturally for people to do when inputting a soundtrack. Therefore broken, badly broken.
2006-05-12 13259, 2006
Nyght
it moves soundtracks from "album/release status" to the same position classical is.
2006-05-12 13211, 2006
wolfsong13
i haven't read it recently for comments but i have to disagree
2006-05-12 13212, 2006
Nyght
I wont put in a classical album.. because I don't know how to.. because it's too difficult.
2006-05-12 13228, 2006
nechto13
Nyght: i know how to search for soundtracks in russian. the fact of the matter is most of the information about soviet releases for instance is still not there in that detail
2006-05-12 13240, 2006
Nyght
they are for French..
2006-05-12 13248, 2006
wolfsong13
a lot of things aren't naturally the way people would expect them in mb which is why we document the sg itself
2006-05-12 13258, 2006
Nyght
they are for German, I'm sorry, Russian and Japanese are beyond my comprehension nechto13
2006-05-12 13228, 2006
nechto13
Nyght: also you put it in quotes you won't get any hits. without quotes you at least have a chance. and not always either
2006-05-12 13243, 2006
Nyght
and you think it's better for every classical album to need to go through an editor, or not come in at all because the guidelines are too much to swallow wolfsong13?
2006-05-12 13205, 2006
wolfsong13
i don't think they are that much
2006-05-12 13211, 2006
Nyght
I got three pages worth of google hits nechto13
2006-05-12 13218, 2006
Nyght
but, that was english... :shrugs:
2006-05-12 13221, 2006
wolfsong13
and there's only one aspect of the csg being applied to soundtracks
2006-05-12 13243, 2006
wolfsong13
and that's who the album artist should be
2006-05-12 13255, 2006
wolfsong13
that's pretty straight forward
2006-05-12 13256, 2006
nechto13
Nyght: like i said that was a popular soundtrack. i haven't tried to put in anything obscure in MB
2006-05-12 13226, 2006
wolfsong13
then there are a couple of exceptions i would say make along the way which have actually been made easier by SG5DR
2006-05-12 13237, 2006
Nyght
do me a favor, wolfsong13, step out of your currently known name... make another name, start making moderations that aren't up to style specs.. you'll see the frustration, especially if you move out of genre as well. (ie: go to punk, rock, gothic, classical, etc.) there are helpful moderators, and it's gotten much better.. but,
2006-05-12 13206, 2006
Nyght
there's still a lot of negative impact for a new unknown editor.. and no, I wont even try classical, because it's too daunting.
2006-05-12 13246, 2006
wolfsong13
no argument there
2006-05-12 13213, 2006
wolfsong13
but i think the solution to that problem are the other items you're looking at
2006-05-12 13238, 2006
Nyght
now, take that same general "idea" and come in, without knowing the style guideline, and here you have Top Gun... it's a soundtrack, composer? Is that on liner notes?
2006-05-12 13242, 2006
Nyght
I can get them and find out... ;)
2006-05-12 13259, 2006
wolfsong13
the newbie frustration is "what are these rules you keep bringing up?" and "why do i have to hunt them down?"
2006-05-12 13237, 2006
nechto13
Nyght: people who put in releases that don't follow guidelines do so not because they know that guidelines are out there, but too complex. but because they haven't read them. i can't speek for most, but there are some who are not interested in following guidelines
2006-05-12 13237, 2006
wolfsong13
we have to get the rules in front of the user where they need to apply them
2006-05-12 13248, 2006
Nyght
and nechto13, I would never put this much work into finding out who the disney composer was.. the disney, the rest of the soundtracks, would go in the stack of classical
2006-05-12 13218, 2006
Nyght
because, the artists are on the liner notes, the composer.... isn't natural for what is shown as the norm for putting in soundtracks in the db itself.
2006-05-12 13219, 2006
wolfsong13
if we want good data we can't expect that someone will not get frustrated doing a 1001 searches because we hung in there and did it even though we were frustrated
2006-05-12 13259, 2006
Nyght
That right there wolfsong, is why I say the soundtrack guideline is broken... and too hard on new users.
2006-05-12 13215, 2006
wolfsong13
and if the composer isn't known btw that's covered in the sg already
2006-05-12 13257, 2006
Nyght lifts brow and opens up the soundtrack guideline yet once more
2006-05-12 13259, 2006
wolfsong13
uhhh i'm lost
2006-05-12 13221, 2006
wolfsong13
maybe you're not following what i mean
2006-05-12 13249, 2006
wolfsong13
imagine the edit page for a second
2006-05-12 13218, 2006
wolfsong13
i'm talking about putting the content of the wiki on that page (in cleaner version)
2006-05-12 13227, 2006
wolfsong13
that's what i'm saying will help newbies
2006-05-12 13228, 2006
nechto13
Nyght: i haven't met a newbie who told me that they don't undersdtand the guideline after i asked them to read it. but it's possible it needs rewriting, that doesn't mean that it should be abandoned
2006-05-12 13231, 2006
wolfsong13
on screen help
2006-05-12 13238, 2006
wolfsong13
not help you go search for
2006-05-12 13200, 2006
Nyght
For pre-existing classical music used on soundtracks, Artist should contain the composer in accordance with the ClassicalStyleGuide. For pre-existing non-classical music, Artist should contain the performers. (There's pre-existing..)
2006-05-12 13205, 2006
wolfsong13
that doesn't have anything to do with what you're saying is broken in the current proposal at all
2006-05-12 13239, 2006
Nyght
Where performer information is available, it should be indicated using AdvancedRelationships. Such music is often referred to as the "score" - especially if it is instrumental.
2006-05-12 13249, 2006
Nyght
there's attributing performers via AR
2006-05-12 13258, 2006
Nyght
but, I don't see anything that says, it the composer is unknown do this..
2006-05-12 13218, 2006
Nyght
wolfsong13: if we want good data we can't expect that someone will not get frustrated doing a 1001 searches because we hung in there and did it even though we were frustrated
2006-05-12 13228, 2006
Nyght
That, is exactly why I say composer is a bad idea....
2006-05-12 13235, 2006
Nyght
your comment right there.
2006-05-12 13241, 2006
nechto13
Nyght: i actually didn't know that there were guidelines and had to ask for links when i joined irc when i was a newbie since i didn't know how to find them either
2006-05-12 13245, 2006
wolfsong13
composer = artist in this case yes?
2006-05-12 13242, 2006
wolfsong13
Nyght: we're talking about separate things
2006-05-12 13258, 2006
Nyght is going to have to step back, because obviously there's miscommunications here
2006-05-12 13225, 2006
wolfsong13
you're proposing the content of the guideline be changed for clarity
2006-05-12 13244, 2006
Nyght
the current guideline, to my thinking, the way the majority of the database is currently, shows the current guideline goes against what people would normally do...
2006-05-12 13255, 2006
Nyght
therefore it is broken.
2006-05-12 13258, 2006
wolfsong13
i'm saying that no matter what the content is if users don't know the content existts it's worthless to them
2006-05-12 13209, 2006
wolfsong13
i'm saying change the presentation of the guidelines
2006-05-12 13246, 2006
wolfsong13 does
2006-05-12 13206, 2006
wolfsong13
the point is if i don't know the rules i can't use them
2006-05-12 13211, 2006
nechto13
maybe type of release should be entered first and relevant guidelines would be presented to the user on the album add page?
2006-05-12 13211, 2006
Nyght
I don't see anywhere in the soundtrack guideline where it says, if you can't find composer.. or anything else. I see cases of pre-existing information. But, the opposite (ie: This very popular disney song "a whole new world" (or whatever pet name you want pet song) has been released on dozens of VA's is "post" soundtrack, therefore should be changed to composer.)
2006-05-12 13222, 2006
wolfsong13
it doesn't matter what the rules say at that point
2006-05-12 13256, 2006
Nyght
if a song was covered/remixed it breaks soundtrack guidelines. (I don't see that in the soundtrack guidelines, but I've heard of it.)
2006-05-12 13208, 2006
wolfsong13
nechto13: the help system i'm proposing occurs every step of the way not at x point
2006-05-12 13229, 2006
wolfsong13
Nyght: plz answer my earlier question
2006-05-12 13234, 2006
Nyght
(*holiday music should go by composer) again, it's no where I have found in the guidelines... there's a lot that seems to be followed and not in the guidelines.. but, step back from that.. are we talking "my idea" or current guideline?
2006-05-12 13240, 2006
nechto13
wolfsong13: i see. i'm guessing i missed that part
2006-05-12 13250, 2006
wolfsong13
does composer = artist as described in the current proposal?
2006-05-12 13207, 2006
Nyght
I agree to this wolfsong13: i'm saying that no matter what the content is if users don't know the content existts it's worthless to them
2006-05-12 13218, 2006
wolfsong13
great
2006-05-12 13252, 2006
Nyght
If this was the case "nechto13: maybe type of release should be entered first and relevant guidelines would be presented to the user on the album add page?" I wouldn't even have entered a single soundtrack, because it's not worth it to me to look up the composer.
2006-05-12 13204, 2006
wolfsong13
can you also agree that if a user sees PropsedStyle, not Official they are more than likely not going to use it?
2006-05-12 13214, 2006
Nyght
Why not? "wolfsong13: it doesn't matter what the rules say at that point"
2006-05-12 13229, 2006
Nyght
Which question? "wolfsong13: Nyght: plz answer my earlier question"
2006-05-12 13257, 2006
Nyght
I like this idea "wolfsong13: nechto13: the help system i'm proposing occurs every step of the way not at x point"
2006-05-12 13210, 2006
wolfsong13
[12:18] wolfsong13: does composer = artist as described in the current proposal?
2006-05-12 13219, 2006
Nyght
in my current proposal?
2006-05-12 13240, 2006
Nyght
wait.. composer in my mind never equals artist.
2006-05-12 13244, 2006
Nyght
They are composer.. period.
2006-05-12 13246, 2006
wolfsong13
no the one in the wiki that you're saying is broken
2006-05-12 13255, 2006
Nyght
composer can be lyricist, and composer, but they are the writers
2006-05-12 13258, 2006
wolfsong13
i'm talking about what it says
2006-05-12 13206, 2006
wolfsong13
not what you're thinking
2006-05-12 13227, 2006
Nyght
For music written for the soundtrack, Artist should contain the composer, not the performer. Where performer information is available, it should be indicated using AdvancedRelationships. Such music is often referred to as the "score" - especially if it is instrumental.
this is why i say genre specific styles are quite dangerous and weedy
2006-05-12 13247, 2006
wolfsong13
the general SG should overshadow all genre specific items
2006-05-12 13207, 2006
Nyght
but, you could easily have artists in that situation, so, unknown is better than factual artist.
2006-05-12 13214, 2006
Nyght
just a point, sorry I am interrupting you.
2006-05-12 13222, 2006
wolfsong13
so genre specific should work as much in concert with something that exists as possible
2006-05-12 13249, 2006
wolfsong13
errr meaning the performer or composer?
2006-05-12 13256, 2006
Nyght
performer, I'm sorry
2006-05-12 13251, 2006
wolfsong13
so if the entire soundtrack was written by an uncredited performer who are you saying the AlbumArtist would be if all the tracks are by different performers?
2006-05-12 13223, 2006
wolfsong13
and one more cavet
2006-05-12 13252, 2006
Nyght
you have that same situation as it stands right now, I don't see how that justifies keeping something that currently is about 75 % of what the database isn't
2006-05-12 13259, 2006
wolfsong13
the rule should hold to compilations
2006-05-12 13204, 2006
nechto13
Nyght: i don't know about you, but i'm hoping that when someone is putting a soundtrack or a classical release in MB and they don't know the composer then someone will have to fill in the blanks. i've seen people do blind imports from freedb and somehow that doesn't stir up as much debate about lack of additional information
2006-05-12 13217, 2006
wolfsong13
the performer stays the TrackArtist
2006-05-12 13246, 2006
wolfsong13
so when we talk about all those Disney hits albums the TrackArtist should not be the composer
2006-05-12 13208, 2006
Nyght
then that needs to be clarified in the soundtrack guideline.
2006-05-12 13225, 2006
wolfsong13
feel free to add it
2006-05-12 13234, 2006
wolfsong13
it's only a proposal
2006-05-12 13247, 2006
wolfsong13
but i don't think the proposal is broken as you said
2006-05-12 13258, 2006
wolfsong13
i think it may need tweaking
2006-05-12 13210, 2006
wolfsong13
and it probably hasn't been updated in light of SG5DR either
but, it's being followed like it was a hard fast rule. People are voting no for performers in artist field.
2006-05-12 13251, 2006
wolfsong13
that's a whole separate problem
2006-05-12 13203, 2006
Nyght
and I can't get behind tweaking it, because in my mind it's already so broken.. because you can tell by a database search it's not natural.
2006-05-12 13225, 2006
wolfsong13
and it can't be fixed with another proposal
2006-05-12 13206, 2006
Nyght
well... then consider the proposal I had, a second proposal? Or, in my personal preference.. it would be all performers, and in the instance performers can't be found, then composer of the track.
2006-05-12 13211, 2006
wolfsong13
it can be fixed by tightening up the existing proposal and getting it official and pointing out in mod notes now that it is only proposed at this time
2006-05-12 13235, 2006
Nyght
because if I edit it, it will change drastically, and I don't want to do that.. I wanted to try and get some middle ground to what was being accepted already.
2006-05-12 13236, 2006
nechto13
Nyght: i think you come to the conclusion that it's broken because you spent too much time on Disney ;)
2006-05-12 13238, 2006
wolfsong13
but either way the votes fall where they may until something is offifical and nothing ever has been
