#musicbrainz

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      • Knio
        Knio (~knio@b0gy40ohy0hg.ab.hsia.telus.net) has joined #musicbrainz

        • 2003-09-02 24550, 2003

      • grishnav
        grishnav (~grishnav@198.36.182.59) has joined #musicbrainz

        • 2003-09-02 24557, 2003

      • grishnav
        So, um, Music Brainz isn't writing metadata for a certain set of songs.

        • 2003-09-02 24510, 2003

      • grishnav
        :(

        • 2003-09-02 24512, 2003

      • grishnav
        This is anoying.

        • 2003-09-02 24524, 2003

      • grishnav
        What good is a tagger that doesn't tag? :P

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      • Earthpig
        Anyone around?

        • 2003-09-02 24540, 2003

      • Earthpig has some TRM queries

        • 2003-09-02 24534, 2003

      • Earthpig
        1) Can they be generated offline? I see references to trm.musicbrainz.org:4447 in the TRM::FinalizeSignature() routine.

        • 2003-09-02 24556, 2003

      • Earthpig
        2) Are they supposed to work after lossy compression? I get a TRM that musicbrainz knows about from a .wav file, the same song compressed as high-quality .ogg yields a totally different TRM that mb doesn't know about.

        • 2003-09-02 24527, 2003

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      • Earthpig
        Anyone about?

        • 2003-09-02 24526, 2003

      • icepick
        icepick is now known as icepick-away

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      • icepick-away
        icepick-away is now known as icepick

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      • Mutiny
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      • icepick
        icepick is now known as icepick-away

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      • icepick-away
        icepick-away is now known as icepick

        • 2003-09-02 24515, 2003

      • lilo
        [Global Notice] Hi all. We are still working on the replacement for global noticing, I'm told that at least one script, the one for irssi, is near completion. Apologies to those who find this annoying. We're considering finishing the conversion to 1.0.32 final this afternoon, in just a few minutes. I'll lay it out for you quickly and you can /msg me with any comments.

        • 2003-09-02 24506, 2003

      • lilo
        [Global Notice] Advantages: problems with +J, +b/+q and +e would probably all be resolved. Disadvantage: in case of serious problem, our lead coder doesn't have much availability this week, so we'd probably have to roll everything back to 1.0.31+pre24 . Let me know what you think. Thanks.

        • 2003-09-02 24552, 2003

      • lilo
        [Global Notice] Hi all. Consensus of response seems to be that we should go ahead and convert, and someone even clonebotted #php, which means we should probably get +J fixed. We're going to go ahead and upgrade the remaining hubs (big noise) and then follow that with the main rotatation servers (bigger noise). Thanks in advance for your patience and understanding. :)

        • 2003-09-02 24536, 2003

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        • 2003-09-02 24519, 2003

      • lilo
        [Global Notice] Okay, folks. Here goes. We're going to do pretty much everything at once. We'll see you on the other side. Thanks to all of you for your patience and understanding, and, uh, thanks to the EFNet crowd on #gah for their "kind words" ;)

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      • irc.freenode.net
        Disconnected from irc.freenode.net (Connection reset by peer)

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      • orwell.freenode.net
        Users on #musicbrainz: MBChatLogger sward_3 icepick eikeon RJ arnowa__ verus grishnav Rotty

        • 2003-09-02 24508, 2003

      • MBChatLogger
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      • lilo
        [Global Notice] Hi all. We're substantially upgraded at this point. One ipv6 server needs an upgrade. You shouldn't see much splitting at this point. Again, thanks to everyone for helping make this one a smooth one, and we'll get the global notice replacement rolled out as soon as we can. :)

        • 2003-09-02 24538, 2003

      • MacDome
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      • Mutiny
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      • djce
        djce (~davide@195.60.9.122) has joined #musicbrainz

        • 2003-09-02 24533, 2003

      • djce
        djce has changed the topic to: MusicBrainz - Tag! Edit! Vote!

        • 2003-09-02 24514, 2003

      • djce prepares for MB to get busy again

        • 2003-09-02 24507, 2003

      • MacDome
        why so?

        • 2003-09-02 24520, 2003

      • djce
        Well, it's been pretty quiet recently.

        • 2003-09-02 24526, 2003

      • djce
        Some time soon ruaok will return.

        • 2003-09-02 24527, 2003

      • MacDome
        ah.

        • 2003-09-02 24538, 2003

      • MacDome
        BM is over now...

        • 2003-09-02 24545, 2003

      • djce
        And by the end of the week, I plan to have updated the server with the Latest & Greatest.

        • 2003-09-02 24555, 2003

      • MacDome
        cool.

        • 2003-09-02 24505, 2003

      • djce
        And then I can start work on new features again. Hurrah!

        • 2003-09-02 24545, 2003

      • djce
        btw, gotta love this story: http://www.theonion.com/current_top_story.html

        • 2003-09-02 24549, 2003

      • djce
        :-)

        • 2003-09-02 24553, 2003

      • MacDome
        I haven't touched the OS X client in almost 2 weeks.. I've been really bad.

        • 2003-09-02 24537, 2003

      • djce
        Hmmmm, so many bugs to fix :-( and new things to add :-). What to do?

        • 2003-09-02 24508, 2003

      • djce
        I fancy an "edit all" button - edit artist, name, track names and attributes of an album, all in one go.

        • 2003-09-02 24528, 2003

      • djce imagines a "Guess All" button ....

        • 2003-09-02 24524, 2003

      • boon
        boon (~boon@xi.cis.ohio-state.edu) has joined #musicbrainz

        • 2003-09-02 24543, 2003

      • boon
        is ruaok still at burning man?

        • 2003-09-02 24557, 2003

      • djce
        I think he's on his way home or something.

        • 2003-09-02 24501, 2003

      • djce
        BM is over, AFAIK.

        • 2003-09-02 24509, 2003

      • boon
        cool

        • 2003-09-02 24518, 2003

      • djce
        indeed :-)

        • 2003-09-02 24555, 2003

      • djce
        Just checked: rob is indeed menat to be back today.

        • 2003-09-02 24518, 2003

      • boon
        cool, maybe he'll know why tunepimp doesn't link for me ;-)

        • 2003-09-02 24525, 2003

      • Earthpig
        Earthpig (xti1bpqmdh@pigpond.xs4all.nl) has joined #musicbrainz

        • 2003-09-02 24544, 2003

      • Earthpig
        anyone about?

        • 2003-09-02 24528, 2003

      • djce
        hi

        • 2003-09-02 24541, 2003

      • Earthpig
        Howdy. :)

        • 2003-09-02 24545, 2003

      • djce waves

        • 2003-09-02 24554, 2003

      • Earthpig
        Got a few moments? I have some TRM questions :D

        • 2003-09-02 24559, 2003

      • djce
        ok

        • 2003-09-02 24517, 2003

      • Earthpig
        I was tinkering this morning. Came across a few things.

        • 2003-09-02 24525, 2003

      • djce
        ok...

        • 2003-09-02 24540, 2003

      • Earthpig
        1) Can TRM fingerprints be generated offline?

        • 2003-09-02 24559, 2003

      • Earthpig
        2) Do they work 'through' codec transformations?

        • 2003-09-02 24510, 2003

      • djce
        1) No, not yet. There's two parts to generating a TRM fingerprint, only one can be done offline.

        • 2003-09-02 24545, 2003

      • djce
        The first part is to read the file and do some funky audio analysis stuff I don't understand. That ends up giving you a bunch of numbers measured from the file.

        • 2003-09-02 24546, 2003

      • Earthpig
        Ah ok. That explains the references to trm.mb.org in the client code. Was wondering about that.

        • 2003-09-02 24513, 2003

      • Earthpig
        Yup. It seems to do things like a FFT of the music, count beats, and also zero transitions.

        • 2003-09-02 24523, 2003

      • djce
        The second part then posts those numbers to the TRM sig generator, which spits out a fingerprint.

        • 2003-09-02 24530, 2003

      • Earthpig
        The code has no explanation of what it's doing. Hrm. :)

        • 2003-09-02 24552, 2003

      • djce
        The TRM sig generator is at mb.org/cgi-bin/gateway/gateway?4447, AKA trm.musicbrainz.org

        • 2003-09-02 24553, 2003

      • Earthpig
        (I guess it's one thing to license the tech, another to explain what's being licensed.)

        • 2003-09-02 24501, 2003

      • Earthpig
        Yup.

        • 2003-09-02 24512, 2003

      • Earthpig
        The second question relates to some TRM sigs I tried.

        • 2003-09-02 24512, 2003

      • djce
        Part (1) is open source and free. Part (2) is a licensed black box.

        • 2003-09-02 24525, 2003

      • Earthpig
        Yup. Figured as much.

        • 2003-09-02 24549, 2003

      • djce
        Anyway, your question (2) - the answer is: ideally, yes, it is independent of codec etc.

        • 2003-09-02 24550, 2003

      • Earthpig
        anyway... i generated a TRM of a .wav file. The result mb.org knows about, returns the right title, etc.

        • 2003-09-02 24521, 2003

      • Earthpig
        But I've also got a very high-quality .off of the same wav, but get a totally different TRM that mb.org has no clue about.

        • 2003-09-02 24539, 2003

      • Knio
        Knio (~knio@b0gy40ohy0hg.ab.hsia.telus.net) has joined #musicbrainz

        • 2003-09-02 24541, 2003

      • Earthpig
        (oggenc -b 160)

        • 2003-09-02 24506, 2003

      • djce
        Well of course there is no level of "/totally/ different" vs "/slightly/ different" - it's just a hash, so it's either the same, or not.

        • 2003-09-02 24537, 2003

      • djce
        So regardless of quality it's /meant/ to be the same, but if it gets it wrong then of course you'll get a different fingerprint.

        • 2003-09-02 24512, 2003

      • Earthpig
        Yeah. Looks like it got it wrong then.

        • 2003-09-02 24518, 2003

      • djce
        'fraid so.

        • 2003-09-02 24522, 2003

      • Earthpig
        Bit disappointing.

        • 2003-09-02 24532, 2003

      • djce
        Try some more files maybe, see if it fares better normally.

        • 2003-09-02 24536, 2003

      • philou55
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        • 2003-09-02 24552, 2003

      • Earthpig
        Yeah. Admittedly I only tried one.

        • 2003-09-02 24557, 2003

      • djce
        (Hey it's getting busy in here! You at the back, make some room! :-)

        • 2003-09-02 24513, 2003

      • Earthpig
        Which version of TRM is the licensed black box?

        • 2003-09-02 24518, 2003

      • Earthpig
        B, C or D?

        • 2003-09-02 24529, 2003

      • djce
        Sorry, I don't understand the question.,

        • 2003-09-02 24544, 2003

      • Earthpig
        Relatable... they licensed the TRM tech, no?

        • 2003-09-02 24548, 2003

      • djce
        Are there several versions of the Relatable product?

        • 2003-09-02 24550, 2003

      • djce
        yes

        • 2003-09-02 24555, 2003

      • Earthpig
        http://www.relatable.com/tech/trm_products.html

        • 2003-09-02 24557, 2003

      • djce
        I don't know which version we have.

        • 2003-09-02 24506, 2003

      • Earthpig
        There's TRM-B, TRM-C and TRM-D according to that page.

        • 2003-09-02 24512, 2003

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        • 2003-09-02 24536, 2003

      • Earthpig
        Oh ok. They describe broadly the differences, but it's not enough to really know strengths/weaknesses and when they might [not] work.

        • 2003-09-02 24539, 2003

      • Earthpig
        Anyway... thanks for your help :)

        • 2003-09-02 24545, 2003

      • djce
        np

        • 2003-09-02 24556, 2003

      • djce
        Try some more files, see how it goes.

        • 2003-09-02 24506, 2003

      • Earthpig
        Yeah. Will play a bit.

        • 2003-09-02 24523, 2003

      • Earthpig
        Does a given recording normally have a single TRM?

        • 2003-09-02 24529, 2003

      • Earthpig
        Or is it a one-to-many?

        • 2003-09-02 24541, 2003

      • djce
        You mean a single copy of a single recording?

        • 2003-09-02 24548, 2003

      • Earthpig
        Yeah. Same source.

        • 2003-09-02 24505, 2003

      • djce
        AFAIK, it's pretty stable. Same source => same fingerprint.

        • 2003-09-02 24519, 2003

      • Earthpig
        *nod*

        • 2003-09-02 24521, 2003

      • djce
        I'm not sure we really have stats on that. But, it's deterministic, right?

        • 2003-09-02 24528, 2003

      • Earthpig
        Yeah.

        • 2003-09-02 24538, 2003

      • djce
        So why would it be any different? Makes sense I 'spose.

        • 2003-09-02 24543, 2003

      • Earthpig
        I'm just curious what sort of transformations cause the TRM to diverge.

        • 2003-09-02 24533, 2003

      • Earthpig
        Some of the products on that page mention it allows volume normalization and time dilation (possibly with pitch correction).

        • 2003-09-02 24514, 2003

      • Earthpig
        Some also allow fragments of the track to be sufficient.

        • 2003-09-02 24557, 2003

      • djce
        Just seeing if I can see anything at the sigserver itself to indicate whether it's B/C/D. No luck so far.

        • 2003-09-02 24527, 2003

      • djce
        Maybe sward_3 can help - he's a Relatable guy, IIRC.

        • 2003-09-02 24501, 2003

      • sward_3
        the MB sigserver is based on a variant of TRM-B

        • 2003-09-02 24538, 2003

      • djce
        Thanks, Sean. Prompt reply :-)

        • 2003-09-02 24555, 2003

      • Earthpig
        Sweet. Thanks. :)

        • 2003-09-02 24513, 2003

      • djce puts sward_3 back into suspended animation again ;-)

        • 2003-09-02 24501, 2003

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