oloP: I'm not sure where the line should be drawn.
2013-11-21 32547, 2013
CallerNo6
It probably looks terrible on an ipod-thingy, but that's a problem to be solved in picard :-)
2013-11-21 32543, 2013
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2013-11-21 32534, 2013
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2013-11-21 32540, 2013
muffins123
hello, a quick question about artist credits if I may re: https://itunes.apple.com/nz/album/id714720333 - how do I credit "Arrakis (Noisia Remix)" - a song by BSE, remixed by Noisia
2013-11-21 32552, 2013
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2013-11-21 32535, 2013
Hadora
to my knowledge remixer is not used in artist credit
2013-11-21 32545, 2013
Hadora
you use it in relationships
2013-11-21 32547, 2013
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2013-11-21 32534, 2013
snartal
Where do we store the language the lyrics are sung in?
2013-11-21 32504, 2013
Freso
snartal: Work -> Lyrics language
2013-11-21 32518, 2013
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2013-11-21 32526, 2013
snartal
What about multiple languages in one song?
2013-11-21 32510, 2013
reosarevok
[multiple languages]
2013-11-21 32555, 2013
snartal
Bummer, thought that was going to be the answer.
2013-11-21 32552, 2013
snartal
So, that implies if someone sings the same song in a different language, its a different work?
2013-11-21 32501, 2013
Freso
Yep.
2013-11-21 32527, 2013
Freso
You can relate the original song to the other language versions using the "is translation of" relationship.
2013-11-21 32523, 2013
snartal
Bummer.
2013-11-21 32559, 2013
reosarevok
Well, it is :) A derivative work for sure, but it's not the *same* song :)
2013-11-21 32524, 2013
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2013-11-21 32528, 2013
snartal
So what determines if something is a cover, vs a new work?
2013-11-21 32532, 2013
kuno
snartal: that's not easy to determine :)
2013-11-21 32529, 2013
kuno
snartal: if someone performs a work once at a live concert, of which some unofficial recordings exist -- that probably doesn't need a new work.
2013-11-21 32504, 2013
kuno
snartal: if someone writes new arrangements of a work, records a studio performance of that arrangement, publishes that on an album -- that probably is a new work.
2013-11-21 32547, 2013
kuno
in the context of musicbrainz, I would probably only add a new work to the database if I need to put relationships on the covered work which don't apply to the original.
2013-11-21 32501, 2013
nikki
we don't normally split works for every arrangement though
2013-11-21 32549, 2013
kuno
nikki: if you want to credit that arrangement on the work, you have to, otherwise it would apply to the original.
2013-11-21 32553, 2013
nikki
you're not forced to credit it on works
2013-11-21 32512, 2013
nikki
it can go on recordings, so if you want to put it on a work, you should have a reason other than "I feel like it" :P
2013-11-21 32552, 2013
snartal
Though, lyric language cannot go on recordings, right?
2013-11-21 32556, 2013
nikki
no
2013-11-21 32546, 2013
kuno
nikki: ah, I didn't know we have arranged at both levels.
2013-11-21 32558, 2013
kuno doesn't enter enough relationships.
2013-11-21 32520, 2013
snartal
Seems weird though that I can change all the music around, and its a cover, but its not if I switch languages.
2013-11-21 32510, 2013
reosarevok
Well, you can't really change all the music around - new composition = new work too
2013-11-21 32520, 2013
reosarevok
You can change its arrangement though, yeah
2013-11-21 32558, 2013
snartal
Right. Realistically, in alot of covers, there are extra bars/measures, etc.
2013-11-21 32512, 2013
snartal
or delted or changed, or etc.
2013-11-21 32534, 2013
snartal
Oh well, it is what it is... don't think its gonna change.
2013-11-21 32509, 2013
reosarevok
That's true. But dunno. If I went to a folk band show and they played Highway to Hell, I'd say "they played Highway to Hell" even if they did it with violins, while if they played a Spanish version of it, I wouldn't
2013-11-21 32512, 2013
reosarevok
*shrugs*
2013-11-21 32523, 2013
reosarevok
Works are quite a subjective area, in general
2013-11-21 32537, 2013
snartal
Yea, but if you went to a Shakira concert.... different story.
2013-11-21 32543, 2013
reosarevok
Oh. I certainly consider the Spanish and English versions of Eyes Like Yours different works, heh
2013-11-21 32556, 2013
reosarevok
I like the Spanish one and not the English one, so they can't be the same thing! :D
2013-11-21 32512, 2013
nikki
I think most people would be a bit miffed if someone went and replaced all their favourite songs with new lyrics in a language they don't speak and then claimed it's the same :P
2013-11-21 32537, 2013
reosarevok
Admittedly, they'd be too if they arranged all their metal songs for a Justin Bieber performance :p
2013-11-21 32553, 2013
snartal
Sure, just as if I replaced cover versions of song done by other artists.
2013-11-21 32511, 2013
snartal
Yet, Boney M.'s version of Feliz Navidad is a cover.
2013-11-21 32524, 2013
Freso
snartal: Just because it's currently entered as such doesn't mean whoever did the edit knew what they were doing.
2013-11-21 32536, 2013
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2013-11-21 32546, 2013
snartal
That is true. Just talking out loud and trying to wrap my head around the concept of work.
2013-11-21 32553, 2013
Freso
There is plenty of "bad" data in MB already. Don't take all data in the db at face value. Use the edit history etc. if something seems dubious.
2013-11-21 32518, 2013
Freso
snartal: One of the things works can be used for is linking e.g. lyrics and sheet music.
2013-11-21 32530, 2013
snartal
The problem with "dubious" is you need a bit of consensus when its a cover vs a work.... which is fuzzy.
2013-11-21 32549, 2013
Freso
So if you have a two recordings where you wouldn't link them to the same lyrics or the same sheet music, they should be two different works.
2013-11-21 32520, 2013
nikki
reosarevok: I meant more that I don't think it makes sense to reuse the same work for a new set of lyrics because even if it's the same performer and music (like the shakira example), it's different in a very easily identifiable way
2013-11-21 32502, 2013
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snartal
Yea, as a non-musically inclined abuser of an acoustic guitar, I probably am not qualified to know if I can link it to the same sheet music.
2013-11-21 32549, 2013
snartal
Per the IWSC, "Musical arrangements, adaptations of lyrics and translations must receive their own unique ISWC numbers"
2013-11-21 32502, 2013
nikki
heh
2013-11-21 32516, 2013
nikki
which is about as closely followed as the ISRC guidelines
I don't think we even have guidelines for works, do we?
2013-11-21 32548, 2013
JonnyJD_ had a popup because ISRC was mentioned in chat ;-)
2013-11-21 32535, 2013
nikki
the isrc handbook stuff, not mb guidelines
2013-11-21 32552, 2013
JonnyJD_
ah okay, I know these
2013-11-21 32552, 2013
nikki
snartal: they might be rules actually. I haven't checked lately
2013-11-21 32522, 2013
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2013-11-21 32557, 2013
snartal
Bottom line is, if I want to know the language the song is sung in, I need to have a work associated with the recording.
2013-11-21 32514, 2013
function1
i created a classical release and set the recording artists appropriately to the performers. i put in the cd after the fact to associate the discid and set the track durations exactly (after typing them in by hand; this means the edit is not auto-accepted and i have to wait for the edit to clear before i can copy over the recording durations from the new tracklist). so the problem is, when i choose to update the recordings with the 'copy
2013-11-21 32524, 2013
nikki
your line was too long and got cut off
2013-11-21 32548, 2013
function1
i'll split in half. what was the last thing you read?
2013-11-21 32558, 2013
nikki
"update the recordings with the 'cop"
2013-11-21 32524, 2013
function1
i created a classical release and set the recording artists appropriately to the performers. i put in the cd after the fact to associate the discid and set the track durations exactly (after typing them in by hand; this means the edit is not auto-accepted and i have to wait for the edit to clear before i can copy over the recording durations from the new tracklist). so the problem is,
2013-11-21 32530, 2013
function1
when i choose to update the recordings with the 'copy tracklist info to associated recordings' in the edit release function, the recordings get updated with both the new duration AND the original tracklist artist, i.e. the composer. is there anything i can do about this besides waiting another 6 days to switch the recording artists back over to the performers?
2013-11-21 32535, 2013
nikki
the short answer is no
2013-11-21 32544, 2013
function1
so i thought :/
2013-11-21 32512, 2013
nikki
the longer answer is that you can probably just not bother, since we're planning to make it so that recording durations are automatically calculated
2013-11-21 32533, 2013
nikki
(although we've been planning that for months now, the code is not quite ready to release)
2013-11-21 32541, 2013
function1
will that be retroactive?
2013-11-21 32552, 2013
nikki
yes
2013-11-21 32543, 2013
function1
okay. also, the recording durations already have numbers, since i put them in by hand in the tracklisting. (the disc appeared to have times slightly different than the liner notes indicated). will the recording durations be overidden in that case?
