'(12:21:29 PM) hawke1: A new name on the door does not make it a whole new place / (12:25:50 PM) CallerNo6: It doesn't make it a new "location". It does make it a new "establishment".'
Freso
I think you're reading too much into that comment. I know that that's not what he meant.
hawke1
Unless I misinterpreted that, and he may have not meant it that broadly.
Freso
Re: "names are incidental[/secondary]."
CallerNo6
Okay, I should have said "It often makes it a new 'establishment'."
Freso
If the place was sold on eBay and the new owners of the Place decided to take it into a completely new direction, I think it would make sense to consider it a new MB:Place.
hawke1
Freso: yeah, agreed.
I wouldn't say "a name change *never* means a new place" either. but I don't think a name change on its own is a new place.
Freso
I don't think anyone is claiming that, that I've seen. :)
hawke1
That whole lake*(side? view? whatever?) church thing is ... a bit weird.
But anyway, it's all irrelevant to how we display the place in an AR. :-)
Freso
Rachel's comments in that thread was mostly that the MB:Places had undergone significant changes from the point in time they were relevant to any added MB entities.
(As I understood it - I didn't investigate much, if any, admittedly.)
hawke1
It sounded to me like it was 'this is no longer a venue, the venue ended when the church bought the place' (which was my initial impression as well when I first read about it)
That's one reason I prefer to keep the places as-is -- most of the time they could still easily be used as a music venue, if they ever were one.
A sports arena is still just as suitable for music after you nail a cross to the wall. :-)
That applies until they knock the building down, I think.
Freso
I think it makes sense to make a new Place if it can be considered a new Place. For some people, that means that the building has to be levelled and rebuilt, for others it just means change of ownership/purpose.
As long as we're able to link Places together, I'm happy to accommodate the latter ones.
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hawke1
Freso: I'd really like better presentation if we want to make it normal to split them.
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CallerNo6
Granted, the real world doesn't really fit into schemas cleanly, but it'd be nice if we could say 'An mb-place is generally a location' or 'An mb-place is generally an establishment'.
I guess right now the defintion leans towards 'location'.
Rotab
argh, windows is refusing to recognize this CD completely.. i wonder if it ever worked.
no disc id for you :[
hawke1
CallerNo6: 'establishment' feels really too fuzzy to me though.
There's a place nearby (now entirely closed) -- formerly the Mission Coffeehouse, which had live music for a longish time. Then eventually that closed and reopened shortly after as 'the afterdark', still with the same kind of live music, basically the same place but with new owners, better lighting and a fresh coat of paint.
CallerNo6
more fuzzy than "an artist is a project"?
hawke1
New establishment? technically, sure...but for the patrons, nothing really changed.
CallerNo6
We'd make a new release because of much smaller differences.
Even though to the listener it's pretty much the same thing.
hawke1
Yeah, but releases are actually different *things*
CallerNo6
So are establishements.
hawke1
If someone (this seems like it might be a neat art project)...if someone were to take a single CD as the only instance of a release and reprint the artwork over it repeatedly....
or have a digital release with a single piece of artwork that changes over time, procedurally generated with the current timestamp as a seed...
CallerNo6
I want that!
I mean, I agree that some changes to a venue are purely cosmetic, and some name changes are really more like "name variations".
3-Com Park will always be Candlestick to some people. Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport will always be "National".
hawke1
Yep.
CallerNo6
For your coffee place, that doesn't feel like a mere "name variation" to me. (even though I still call Cole Coffee by it's old name 9 years later).
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the current Place definition doesn't sound to me like "we thought this through carefully, and a Place is usually a location". It sounds more like "Duh, everybody knows that a Place is a place.".
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hawke1
CallerNo6: yeah, but I have no problem with multiple 'establishments' being the same 'place'.
CallerNo6
In general?
hawke1
For the most part; I could see a few exceptions for that.
Also in a few cases I could see one 'place' with multiple 'locations'
CallerNo6
Sure. If McDonalds moves to the building nextdoor, it's still McDonalds.
So for a release, a new itunes ID and copyright holder is sufficient to make a new release? But for a place, not?
Maybe the analogy doesn't exactly work. Oh well.
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hawke1
CallerNo6: If the place gets a new copyright holder, it's a new release. ;-)
Freso
#placesarereleasestoo
hawke1
CallerNo6: But more seriously, I think there's a distinction in that releases are all separate artifacts. We're not talking about the same actual physical object changing.
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or I should say that with physical releases, they're all separate artifacts. The question of whether a digital release is an artifact is a little fuzzier I suppose
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FergusL
I want to extend the -brainz.org series with the "dancebrainz.org" one, one that adds an ID that identifies the traditional dance the track is based on
I dunno that that requires an entire *brainz system but I support the idea of connecting dances to songs.
CatQuest
+1
FergusL
in this example track 1 and 12 would have the same DBID (DanceBrainz ID) since they are "bourrées à 3 temps"
CatQuest
well we have places and areas, why the hell not dances anyway?
it's a good gsoc project honestly
chirlu
AllMusic now has an annoying anti-adblocker script. Seems like I will add links to them even more rarely than I did already …
CatQuest
I stopped doing it when their pages started "bleeding" (literally breaksing whne i scroll)
FergusL
bourrées are great dances which I should teach to anyone
CatQuest
anywayi must eat and sleep, talk to you guys tomorrow :D
FergusL
see you!
CallerNo6
adding dances to mb sounds totally reasonable
hawke
FergusL: this has been proposed before; problems IIRC have been that some songs aren't created with a dance in mind, and in theory any dance can be performed to any song.
So that kinda leans towards 'only if noted as such on the release' as a style item or something like that.
chirlu
Some think it’s a property of the work, but it mostly isn’t.
hawke
chirlu: I think it could be if described properly.
chirlu: 'intended dance' or something.
but yeah, certainly not always and not clearly.
chirlu
OK. Then it has no practical relevance because works intended for a certain dance are very rare (mostly limited to classical music).
CallerNo6
tango?
FergusL
yes, makes sense, it's either on the release or on the title itself, "Mazurka de...", "Bourrée à..." meaning mazurka of something... or bourrée to... someone
all traditional music from France, Belgium, Italy, Spain, Sweden, Germany etc...
CallerNo6
if this is fuzzy or subjective in the way that genre is, then would it be enough to use folksonomy tags?
FergusL
but that's not much still, sure
honestly, I'm suggesting all this because I have personal interest in this music, and I can tell it's really not subjective
actually, a good dancer can tell what dance it is from just listening to a tune, because the tune is composed in a way that adheres to the dance moves
Freso can confirm ^
Freso
CallerNo6: It is fuzzy, but not to the degree of "genre"
FergusL
also, there are a lot of small differences, sometimes dances are named after the person who invented it
and might be known just to a few thousand people who had a band play them for them
Freso
And a polka in Ireland is not exactly the same as a polka in Denmark is not exactly the same as a polka in Finland.
FergusL
and there are numerous derivatives of polkas!
CallerNo6
jeez, you two. if you love dance so much, why don't you marry it?
oh, wait.
Freso
I would like a DanceBrainz though, but more for choreographies, dance crews, tournament/battle results, etc.
FergusL
is that still in the field of traditional dances?
Freso
No.
Well, I know of some trad. dance troupes.
And there are competitions/tournaments for trad. dancing.
FergusL
I'd love to have my library being sortable "by dance" and for example throw a playlist of only scottishes
Freso
But a *Brainz site should not be genre specific.
FergusL
or just finding out how many of those dances I have
(oh, tricky part : some songs have several dances of the same type, some several of differenty types etc...)
Freso
I think the best solution right now is to use tags. Something like "dance: schottish" or some such.
FergusL
that's right, indeed
yes I thought about that first
ha you mean adding a "dance" tag?
CallerNo6
more tags!
and more namespaces!
FergusL
also, regarding dance, there is the recorded repertoire, and the existing one! so a dance might apply to either tracks or recordings BUT some funny musicians will arrange a tune with the same name and play it as a different dance from the original!